We often think of endurance sports as individual activities, but the truth is that relationships are a central part of athletics. Relationships between athletes and their coaches, athletes and other athletes, and even between athletes and team managers are all important to maintain in a healthy manner.
In all of these relationships, there are important ethical boundaries, and crossing them can lead to serious ethical issues. The problem is that some of these boundaries aren’t as clear cut as we might think. Many of us, with the best of intentions, have crossed those lines without even knowing it. Sometimes it amounts to an “Oops, don’t do that again.” But sometimes—particularly for coaches—it can become a career-ending challenge, regardless of whether there was intent to harm or the person was just making a mistake out of ignorance.
So, it’s important we all fully understand these lines. And to help us define these ethical boundaries in various relationships—particularly the coach-athlete relationship—is Dr. Kate Bennett. She is a clinical psychologist and founder of Athlete Insight, a company that serves the psychological needs of athletes. She also consults with USA Cycling on their ethical guidelines for coaches.
In this episode, Trevor Connor and Chris Case talk with Dr. Bennett first about the importance of knowing what you can and can’t do as a coach. Then they focus on the ethics of dual relationships—a situation where a coach or team manager has a second relationship with their athletes. Sometimes it is romantic, but dual relationships can take many forms. Coaches may not even be fully aware they’re in a dual relationship, like when they hire an athlete to do some work on their website just to help the athlete make a few extra dollars.
Finally, they talk about where coaches can find a code of conduct they can follow and discuss what to do when there is an imbalance in power.
Joining Dr. Kate Bennett, we also hear from Robbie Ventura, founder of the Velocity training platform; exercise physiologist Dr. Stacey Brickson; and recent Alpe d’Huez Strava record holder, Jack Burke. They each discuss ethical challenges they’ve faced as both athletes and coaches.
It’s a challenging conversation and many of the answers might surprise you, so get ready to find your lines, and let’s make you fast!
RELATED: The Craft of Coaching Module 9—Coaching Endurance Athletes
Episode Transcript
SPEAKERS
Chris Case, Dr Kate Bennett, Stacey Brickson, Jack Burke, Robbie Ventura, Trevor Connor
Trevor Connor 00:04
Hello and Welcome to Fast talk. Your source for the science of endurance performance. I’m your host, Trevor Connor, here with Chris case, who I’m happy to say, has rejoined fast talk as a regular host. We often think of endurance sports as individual activities, but the truth is that relationships are a central part of athletics, relationships between athletes and their coaches, athletes and other athletes, and even between athletes and team managers, are all important to maintain in a healthy manner. In all of these relationships, they are important ethical boundaries, and crossing them can lead to serious ethical issues. Problem is that some of these boundaries aren’t as clear cut as we might think. Many of us with the best of intentions have crossed those lines without even knowing it. Sometimes it amounts to an oops, don’t do that again. But sometimes, particularly with coaches, it can become a career ending challenge, regardless of whether there was an intent to harm or the person was just making a mistake out of ignorance. So it’s important we fully understand these lines and to help us define these ethical boundaries in various relationships, particularly the coach athlete relationship is Dr Kate Bennett. She is a clinical psychologist and founder of athlete insight, a company that serves the psychological needs of athletes. She also consults with USA Cycling on their ethical guidelines for coaches. In this episode, Chris and I talk with Dr Bennett first about the importance of knowing your scope of confidence or what you can and can’t do as a coach. Then we focus on the ethics of dual relationships, a situation where a coach or team manager has a second relationship with their athlete. Sometimes it’s romantic, but dual relationships can take many forms. Coaches may not even be fully aware they’re in a dual relationship, like when they hire an athlete to do some work on their website, just to help the athlete make a few extra dollars. Finally, we talk about where coaches can find a code of conduct they can follow and discuss what to do when there is an imbalance in power. Joining Dr Kate Bennett, we also hear from Ravi Ventura, founder of the velocity training platform, exercise physiologist Dr Stacy Brixham, and recent alto estrava record holder Jack Burke, they each discuss ethical challenges they face as both athletes and coaches. It’s a challenging conversation, and many of the answers might surprise you. So get ready to find your lines, and let’s make you fast.
Dr Kate Bennett 02:05
Well, Kate, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me.
Trevor Connor 02:09
This is a unique episode for us, so we’re kind of looking forward to this. This is about the ethics of coaching, the ethics of the coach athlete relationship, which I think is something that’s really important for coaches are listening this episode. I think a lot of it’s gonna surprise them, of what is ethical territory and what is not so really excited to have this conversation with
Dr Kate Bennett 02:29
you. Thank you. Me too. Yeah, this conversation actually grew very organically out of my own practice at athlete insight, where I had countless athletes coming to me with ethical dilemmas in their coach athlete relationship. And so this is near and dear to my heart, both professionally as well as personally, helping athletes and coaches create healthy relationships.
Trevor Connor 02:46
So Kate, want to start with a question. This is a term that you use, and so I’m kind of interested in this. You talked about scope of confidence.
Dr Kate Bennett 02:55
Yes, scope of competence, to me is it lies really within what type of training, education, knowledge. Do you have as a coach? I think oftentimes coaches come into this field with the idea that I’m going to help the athlete to my fullest potential, to help them achieve their potential, and within that, I might do a little bit of studying on another topic, whether that’s nutrition or physiology or hormone health or sleep, and then we start to feel like we are also competent at talking about those topics, even though we don’t have formal training or education on them. So scope of competence, to me, means you have actual training and knowledge to share with your athletes that has been through either an educational process or supervised training, pretty
Trevor Connor 03:35
much describes every week of our episodes, doesn’t it?
Chris Case 03:37
Yes, in some ways,
Trevor Connor 03:39
yes it does. We’re always talking about things we know nothing about. Don’t say nothing.
Chris Case 03:43
We don’t know nothing about them. We know something. Which to your point, I think that’s where you can find yourself in I don’t know if dangerous territory is the right word, but you face these questions, these challenges, these ethical dilemmas, in a sense,
Dr Kate Bennett 03:59
correct? Yes, I think the idea behind coaching is do no harm, and sometimes in trying to be helping coach, we start to extend ourselves or over serve in areas that maybe we don’t have the competence. So
Trevor Connor 04:11
I think that’s an important thing. And what I found interesting about it is the fact that this actually kind of goes into ethics, where coaches are trying to help their athletes, and I don’t think they look at this and go, am I being ethical here? But for example, if a coach doesn’t know much about bike fit or doing off the bike work to keep their athlete healthy, or don’t know a lot about nutrition, and feel, oh, I need to help my athlete with everything, and start giving advice in an area where they don’t have the expertise that could actually hurt their athlete, and that is actually an ethical dilemma, whether coaches are aware of it or not
Dr Kate Bennett 04:46
correct, yes, and that’s what I start to consider a boundary crossing, where a coach really I think they in their, you know, purest sense of who they are is trying to be a helper, but they don’t realize that a little bit of information can create. More harm than it can actually help an athlete, and that extends from knowledge of nutrition or bike fit, but even to being a listener. If an athlete’s going through a hard time, and this coach becomes somebody who they start to confide in, over time, this coach might develop a therapist role, even though they’re not a trained mental health clinician. There
Trevor Connor 05:17
is another side of this whole concept of scope of confidence, and it’s that coaches ethically need to ensure that their athletes are getting the full benefits of their expertise. Let’s let coach Robbie Ventura explain
Robbie Ventura 05:29
that is a tough question, I think, as coaches and as part of the coaching universe, and as a person that really wants to support and help coaches do their job better, I think it’s tough to accept money from athletes and not take the time and the energy to get to know them and to customize a training plan. I think ethically, it’s our responsibility to understand the athlete and what their needs are, and to make sure that we don’t rinse and repeat and give everybody the same training plan. Now the caveat to that is, if you don’t really value the training plan that much, and you’re going to spend all of your energy and time really working with the athlete on a regular basis and analyzing everything that they’re doing, and the training plan is just something that’s out there to kind of give them some structure. I can understand that, but I believe that the training plan does have value, and it should be customized, and it would be unethical to give a one size fits all training plan regardless. Honestly, honestly. Now I take that back, regardless of how well you coach them. There should be some individuality in that training plan, because if you don’t do that, and the athlete thinks that this is the standard of coaching, it hurts the entire industry as a whole, because the athletes go, oh, so I’m just going to get this basic training plan. I can go online. I can go to a different company that I don’t even need a coach. Just do this online training plan that I can purchase for 10 bucks, because that’s all I’m getting from my coach. It doesn’t allow us to do our job and to really encourage the importance of a coach, which is the nuance, which is learning the athlete, which is those sorts of things that we can provide a lot more value than any sort of, you know, training plan that you can buy online. It comes down to the basic principle of caring for your athlete. Like you have to care for your athlete. You have to believe, you have to know them. You have to understand you have to take that time to do that. And if you don’t understand that, you’re not gonna have that athlete for long. But the bigger issue is coaching in general, takes a hit, and that’s the issue that I’m having with people. If you don’t want, if you wanna run your business poorly and not care about your athletes, that’s fine, but there’s a trickle down effect that hits all coaching, and that’s why I don’t want you
Chris Case 07:20
to do it. The big question that comes to my mind, and maybe this is jumping ahead or getting off track slightly, but how does a coach know where to draw the line of what they’re good at, or, quote, unquote, what they should be giving advice on, and what they shouldn’t be giving advice on?
Dr Kate Bennett 07:34
You know, I think that’s unique for each and every coach. Some coaches will come into a coaching role, and they’ve gone through entire, you know, undergrad education in kinesiology and Exercise Physiology. And so they have a depth of knowledge there, and can really get technical on that knowledge. And maybe they did a minor in nutrition. And so they feel like they have competence and training there. But then all of a sudden, they have an athlete who has an eating disorder. Are they competent at helping an athlete through an eating disorder, probably not. And so I think for every coach, it’s where does my competence lie? And at what point do I know I need to refer this onto somebody who has skilled, trained, technical ability to help an athlete through this problem or challenge? And I think that we exist in a world where we think we need to be everybody, all the time, and it’s really like, Oh, if I have the best of intentions, a little bit of knowledge might be a little helpful. But what would it be like to refer this person to somebody who has a wealth of knowledge and starting to step back and figure out, like, what is my intention here, and how far does my knowledge go in that intention?
Chris Case 08:34
So it’s hard to see sometimes, right? Very gray. There
Dr Kate Bennett 08:37
is no black or white in this conversation, and that’s really where the ethics comes in, is it’s do no harm. But also behind that, what is my intention and how do I prevent harm? I
Trevor Connor 08:47
think that’s where you have to look at it and not see it as a black and white thing or an all or nothing. You might have training in physiology, you might have training in nutrition, still doesn’t mean you know everything about physiology or nutrition. And so whenever Grant’s on the show, his favorite expression is, it depends. You talk to any good researcher and their favorite expression is, more research is needed. Don’t think there’s ever been a scientific study that doesn’t finish with more research is needed. But when you talk with a good scientist, they’re happy to talk about what they know, what they’ve spent a lot of time on, but I see frequently they get hit with a question where they just go, actually, don’t know. And I think as a coach, you have to be willing to do that, like, if you have some background in nutrition, to start to have the conversation. But if the athlete asks you a question about it, just go, actually, don’t have an answer for that. You know, I deal with that. I do have a background in nutrition. I’ve studied it for a long time, somebody comes to me and goes give me good advice on things to cook and make. I’m like, I’m a horrible cook. Don’t ask me. I’m not sure if that’s the ethical choice. Know what you don’t know,
Dr Kate Bennett 09:55
yeah. And I think it’s also about having a really awesome support network. Around you, or a cohort where you can think about like, okay, to the athlete. I don’t know, let me get back to you, but then you go to a trusted colleague or another coach or a mentor and bounce it off them. This is what they’re asking. This is what I know. What do you think? Should I give them the advice, or should I refer them on or help them find a specialist? And so I think sometimes that gray area is like, Wow. I need to ask somebody else what their perspective is and have them help me decide whether or not this is something I support or something I help them find other support for.
Trevor Connor 10:29
So an example that I absolutely love here. So Chris and I have been working on the level one course for USA Cycling coaches. So this is the first course to become a USA Cycling coach, and we did have to put in their bike fit. And we were talking about, what do we want to put there? It’s like, it should be two sentences. You are not a bike fitter. Don’t try to be,
Chris Case 10:50
yeah, sometimes that’s the correct response. I mean, it takes me back to what I was saying. And what you said was, it’s very gray, and to me, it’s hard to to put myself in the shoes of coaches out there who are built in such a way that they just want to be helping. They want to be not an authority figure, but they want to be an authority on so many things, because they have that label, I am a coach, right? But sometimes it’s a really difficult choice to say, I don’t know. You should talk to this other person,
Dr Kate Bennett 11:21
right? And within that, though, Chris, I think, like, I don’t know, establishes your authority even further right? Because instead of being, you know, the jack of all trades, like, I’m really awesome at this and this and this, I don’t know, but I have an awesome resource for you. And so I think that actually gives you more credibility than to be the person who knows everything.
Chris Case 11:41
It’s very true. It brings up the point about surrounding yourself with a team of colleagues that you trust, that you can lean on, that you can refer your athletes to, and that, in itself, is a task of finding those people to have on your so called team, right?
Dr Kate Bennett 11:57
And when you create a team around you that has high credibility and they have a lot of knowledge and expertise, you become a cohort of experts versus, again, kind of a watered down one size fits all approach.
Trevor Connor 12:11
So this kind of leads into something that about a month ago, I was at the USAC level two clinic. You were there, and you gave a presentation, and there were two things that you talked about, one was boundaries and the other one was dual relationships. So let’s kind of take those apart. Let’s start with boundaries. What do you mean by that?
Dr Kate Bennett 12:30
Yes, so boundaries. In the mental health field, we talk a lot about boundaries, and it really is this idea that we have very clear, concrete norms that help establish a relationship. So the idea of boundaries is they help people understand the expectations of what a relationship consists of. But also they establish safety. I can count on you for this, but I know that you don’t do this. I can rely on you for this thing, and I also know you’re going to tell me to talk to somebody else for this thing. And so it makes relationship very predictable. It makes a relationship safe. It creates consistency in relationships, and really it reduces conflict. Sometimes people feel like with boundaries, we’re too direct or too confrontational, but I think boundaries are really create clarity, and clarity breeds trust and breeds rapport. And so boundaries, the more clear we are, the stronger our coach athlete relationships can become, what
Trevor Connor 13:21
are some of the most important boundaries for a coach to be aware of and for an athlete to be aware of, right?
Dr Kate Bennett 13:27
I think it comes down to a few things. One would be competence. What are your competencies and what aren’t your competencies? What can you provide me? What will you not provide me? Two, I think a lot with coaching is communication. When can I communicate with you? What can I communicate with you about? When can I not communicate with you? And that is as much for the athlete to know, like, oh, coach, didn’t forget about me, but this is just their off hours as it is for the coach. Like, this is my family time. Don’t text me at eight o’clock at night to ask about your workout tomorrow. I’ll get to you at 8am tomorrow. And so I think it also then improves the relationship with regards to how much you’re able to achieve together, because it feels predictable.
Trevor Connor 14:06
Is it important for the coach and the athlete to establish those boundaries from the start, or is it more a case of as you encounter boundaries and they’re looking like they could be crossed, that’s when you discuss it. Which would be better?
Dr Kate Bennett 14:19
I would encourage coaches to have really clear, consistent boundaries. From the start, it can feel confusing if we go back to the communication piece like that. Coach was texting me on Saturdays and Sundays, and all of a sudden they stopped. Did I do something wrong? What happened? Maybe I made them mad. And so the more upfront and consistent they are, then I think again, the stronger that coach, athlete relationship will be. And I really encourage coaches to have the same boundaries across the board. It’s not like, well, these are the boundaries my adults get, and these are the boundaries that my adolescents get. I encourage a coach to be really consistent, so that they are able to present themselves uniformly across the board with all of their athletes.
Chris Case 14:56
Is there? I’m just curious from your point of view, Trevor, but also. Yours, Kate, like you as a coach. Trevor, in the past, did you ever have your athletes sign a contract, or was there ever a document where these expectations were laid out? And I guess to Kate, would you recommend that that is the case for coaches? What I
Trevor Connor 15:17
will say, and I’m sure a lot of coaches have had the same experience? Yes, I had a contract. I had defined levels of service that spelled a lot of this out, like The when is communication acceptable? When is it not? That sort of thing. And I can tell you, every athlete went, I get it, and then as soon as we started, they didn’t remember any of that, sure, sure. Or you would get a couple. I know I’m not supposed to text you at midnight, but if you let this happen, they quickly stop saying, Oh, I know I’m not supposed to. They just text you give an inch, and they take a mile, yeah. And I learned the hard way with one athlete about Yeah, you got to draw that boundary, and you have to make it clear, because I had an athlete who kept breaking that boundary, and then it finally hit a point where she had a ride at 8am on a Saturday, she emailed me. Didn’t even text me. She emailed me at 11 o’clock at night on the Friday, which I didn’t see. I was in bed, and then the next day, she called me up, really angry because I didn’t reply to the email. And that’s when we had to have our talk about there are reasonable expectations here, and this line has been crossed, right? Yeah,
Dr Kate Bennett 16:23
so from a mental health perspective, we lay everything out like we are, as clear as clear can be, with regards to what to expect within this relationship. And I think coaches can do that for themselves too, to just really reduce chaos and conflict. But what I would recommend to coaches is if you set a boundary, so don’t text me after 6pm and somebody text you after 6pm don’t respond. Wait till the next day. I actually have two phone numbers that makes it very easy. I don’t have email on my phone, so it’s very easy to not check. So I’ve also set my own boundaries with my technology. That makes it easier to protect my boundaries. But I think it also falls back on the coach that if they enable the crossing that boundary crossing, then it gives feedback to the athlete, like, oh, well, I say don’t text me after 6pm but if you do, I’ll respond. So then they’re going to continue to cross your boundaries.
Trevor Connor 17:12
You know? The other thing I would recommend is there are times where you need to let them cross the boundary, but tell them they can explain why. So, for example, I worked with an athlete who was Australian, and she was a contender for the national championship, so she went to go and do the race. And unfortunately, because she’s on the other side of the world, her couple hours before the race, was middle of the night for me, so I communicated to her, you can call me. I will have my phone by my bed if something is wrong or you have an issue, but understand this is an exception, because this is your target event of the year, and because we have a time zone thing, don’t get in the habit of calling me at three o’clock in the morning and thinking I’m going to
Dr Kate Bennett 17:50
answer yes exactly. Trevor, I had athletes in France this year at Paris and similar. I don’t normally see people at six and 7am but I was seeing them when they needed to see me. I was seeing them when their schedules allowed, and so it’s exactly that direct communication of this is a unique event. It’s a one off situation. I want to support you through this, so I will, and once we’re back to normal training or off season, we’re going back to our normal communication style.
Trevor Connor 18:13
So you said, be consistent. And you said, even be consistent with your masters and your adolescents. But I am going to bring up there is safe sport, which is a great program, and it’s taken off. And I know in the US, we use it with cyclists, with triathletes, and I think a lot of other sports organizations are taking it on, and that is really about dealing with minors, and there’s a lot of very strict rules like so for example, one of the safe sport rules is you can’t have a one on one communication with a minor, so either they text you when you reply, you have to also include another adult in the reply, so there’s no hidden communication at all with this sort of minor. Are you suggesting also doing that with your adult athletes? Because I think they would be confused by that, or is there some differences when you’re dealing with safe sport rules?
Dr Kate Bennett 19:04
That’s a great question. Yes, I would say there’s nuances. When I was saying treat your master similar to your adolescence, I meant with regards to when you’re available, when you’re on, versus when you’re off. When it comes to safe sport and the map minor abuse program, the minor athlete abuse program, that’s also implemented that very much is, how do we protect minor athletes who maybe don’t have the discretion or the awareness of protecting themselves or could be groomed by an adult or an authority figure in their life, and so that protects them from grooming and potential harm? Dr
Trevor Connor 19:37
Stacy Brixton feels that safe sport is just the starting point finding those lines as a coach can be tough, as she experienced early in her own coaching career.
Stacey Brickson 19:46
From an ethical standpoint, we all are safe sport trained, so I think on that level, we’re all pretty clear where some of the boundaries are. I think where it becomes a little gray and where I struggle probably the most, both as a physical therapist and as a coach. Is that to really understand the needs and goals of a patient or athlete, you need to know quite a bit about them, and that’s where it becomes tricky. So I’ll give an example. I had a patient once, and I knew a lot about what was going on in her life, and it was awful, and I had treated her to the extent that most of what I was doing in the clinic was helping her cope with what was going on at home. It wasn’t I wasn’t mechanically changing tissue. I wasn’t getting her stronger or more flexible, and I had to have that hard conversation that our time together has reached a plateau where I don’t think any more stretch or strengthening can get you any better, really, what I’m doing is acting as a counselor, and that’s not my role, that I don’t know that it’s unethical, but it’s not where I’ve been trained, and it’s now become the focal point of our sessions, and in good faith, I can’t do that anymore, and it was A horrific response from her not anger at me, but just anger that she didn’t want to start over with a counselor. And I thought, Wow, where did I go wrong? Somewhere in our relationship, I gave the impression that I was a counselor, because that’s really how she has identified my role, and that was on me. I’m sure that was one of my first years in practice as a PT. I was 2322 I don’t know that I wouldn’t make that mistake now, but I would recognize it before it got that far. So I think that’s the trick. Is you have to get to know your patients and your clients, but in doing so, you really need to make sure that your role hasn’t changed as therapist or coach, physical therapist, not counseling therapist.
Trevor Connor 21:43
So the other thing you talked a lot about was dual relationships. Tell us a little bit by what you mean by that. And I was actually when you covered this for a while with the level two coaches, I was actually really surprised by the nuances you brought to it. I thought you were gonna say, Never, no dual relationships. But you didn’t quite go there, no.
Dr Kate Bennett 22:02
And it goes back to what we were saying earlier, that it exists in the gray to define it, a dual relationship is when two people, so a coach and an athlete, have two distinctly different relationships. So one part of that relationship could be that we are coach athlete, and then in addition to that, I as a coach have hired you to work in my coaching business. So now I am your boss or your employer. That would be a dual relationship. And so what we find in the sport world, and particularly I see it more in the endurance sports, right? So running, triathlon, cycling, rock climbing, even compared to a ball sport like soccer or basketball, is that we get these really awesome athletes who are up and coming, and we want to help them, and so we hire them to work in our business, or we hire them to babysit our kid, or we ask them to watch our house and our dog while we’re out of town, because we know them and we trust them, those are all dual relationships, and they’re pretty common. They’re, I would say they’re more common than not. And again, I think it’s what’s the intention behind that, and how does this impact both me as a coach as well as the athlete who I’m engaging into this dual relationship with, and it extends all the way to romantic relationships that would also be a dual relationship that I commonly see tell us
Chris Case 23:12
about a gray situation. Trevor, I feel like you’ve got a story to tell.
Trevor Connor 23:15
Yeah. So I actually I want to dive into some of the gray. So I’ll give you an example, like you brought up the coach and also being in a relationship. And I am aware I’m not going to use names, but there was a famous Canadian athlete who, when she was a junior, was dating her coach. They ultimately got married, but that has been used up in Canada as an example of a dual relationship where lines were crossed and it was not appropriate, but I’ll give you one of my own examples. This is with my ex wife. I was a rider on the Colorado State University cycling team, and I was just a rider. So was she, and we started dating, and then the team fired the coach that they had at the time and came to me, and basically they didn’t even ask me, they’re like, Trevor, you’re now the coach, George. My response was, what was it expecting that? So I suddenly found myself as the coach and found myself in a dual relationship, where I was now the coach and dating a member of the team. And it didn’t bother me at all, because of how it came about, but I was friends with the head of club sports at CSU, and he sat me down, and he had issues with it, and we talked about it, and I kind of stood my ground and explained the situation and said, I don’t see it aligned with this, but we never quite saw eye to eye. So when is this appropriate and when is a line crossed? Let’s get into some of that gray.
Dr Kate Bennett 24:39
Yeah, so speaking to your example in particular, it’s interesting, because the romantic relationship pre existed, the power differential, right? The coach, athlete relationship, and so I actually think that that could be appropriate you and your then girlfriend someday, wife, ex wife, right? Would have to negotiate. What does it look like when we’re around the team versus? What does it look like when we’re on our own? But because that relationship was pre existing, I think that’s unique. Whereas, if you were the coach and then you became attracted to her and started dating her as your athlete, to me, there was a power differential there, right? And so then we start to question, did she feel like she had a choice? Did she feel like she had to say yes, because you were the coach and she didn’t want to disappoint you. Was it ever explored that she could get a different coach if she wanted to date you? And so I think it looks a lot different if you were the coach first and had the authority over her from the start. That’s
Trevor Connor 25:32
fair. So the situations where you feel line is crossed is when there is that power differential and somebody might be feeling like they have no choice, or feeling like they’re being coerced, even if they’re not
Dr Kate Bennett 25:44
right. And I would, I mean, I worked with countless athletes in a similar situation, that they start coach athlete, and then they become romantic partners, and they’re in my office with anxiety. I wasn’t really interested, but I didn’t know how to say no. I wasn’t sure this is what I wanted, but I went along with it anyways, because he was my coach, and really into it. I tried to say no, but they persisted, and not necessarily that it was exploiting them, not necessarily that they had been raped or sexually abused, but this idea that I never felt like I could say no, and here I am now in this relationship, and I want out, but they’re still my coach. How do I get out of it and not lose my coach that that’s an ethical dilemma. So what
Trevor Connor 26:24
are signs or symptoms that both coaches and athletes should look for? To say this dual relationship is unethical or unhealthy, and I should not go any further with this. You
Dr Kate Bennett 26:36
know, it’s an interesting question, because when I think from like, what are signs a coach could look for, typically, the athletes who feel stuck in these dual relationships that and you know, up front were not meant to be harmful. I thought I was helping you out by giving you a babysitting job because you needed money. I thought I was helping you out because I gave you a Chris job where you sit on the computer, on your couch and do some work for me in the afternoon after you’ve trained. I think I’m helping you and they’re typically high achieving people pleasing individuals. So these people are also conflict avoidant. They’re not going to say, hey, this isn’t working for me. Or can I change my hours? Or can I transition out of your business? And so it’s not often that the coach is going to pick up on the fact that the dual relationship isn’t working. It’s more the athletes who start to maybe lose sleep over it. They’re feeling stressed. They’re feeling anxious about it. Maybe they’re avoiding their coach because they don’t want to talk to them anymore. They don’t want to say yes to another thing when they don’t have the time or the energy or capacity. And so I think it’s more athletes being aware of this isn’t working, and coaches starting to be I would say more upfront, like, how is this working? Should we revise it? Would you like to change it? Do you want to step out of this role in giving the athletes permission to actually speak to the parts that aren’t working?
Trevor Connor 27:49
So if an athlete suddenly finds himself in that situation and the coach is unaware of it, I imagine there’s a lot of fear on the athletes part to bring this up. So how do they go about doing it, change of the situation, right?
Dr Kate Bennett 28:01
Yes. So sometimes it takes a lot of therapy to get there. I mean, I’ve spent countless hours in sessions with athletes who are stuck in these dual relationships, and we role play in my office. What would you say? How do you think your coach would respond? And so we practice a lot, but truthfully, for an athlete, I think being really direct and upfront is the best way to go. Sometimes, conflict avoidant people like to beat around the bush, like, oh, I don’t think I’m going to be available next weekend hoping. Like, that’s that’s a statement that I don’t want to babysit your kid anymore. Versus, Hey, Coach, I really appreciate these opportunities you’ve given me. Unfortunately, they’re not working out for me, and I’d like to decline them. And that really direct upfront statement clears the air for everybody. It gets rid of the weirdness. But that’s a really scary thing to do, is be direct and upfront with somebody who has authority over you. So I
Trevor Connor 28:51
imagine this is where a coach should be very sensitive to this, because a lot of athletes are going to have a hard time expressing it. So for example, if you hear the Oh, I’m not available next weekend, that’s where you should be going. Do they want out? And they’re just afraid to tell me and give them that opportunity. So are there dual relationships that coaches should just always avoid upfront, like you brought the example of giving them some money by letting them babysit your kids? Should you just say, as a coach, I should just never do that, or truthfully,
Dr Kate Bennett 29:21
yes, and I will tell you, this is a hard for me as a psychologist. It’s a hard line. I can never hire anybody in my practice to do anything in my life, and that’s how I protect the therapeutic relationship. But I realize it’s a lot of work to find a babysitter. It’s a lot of work to find a dog sitter. It is hard to find people you trust to work in your own business. So I get the draw there, but to protect the coach athlete relationship, I recommend finding people outside of your own group. So let me
Trevor Connor 29:48
take this a step further, because this is something that you see often, where you have an amateur elite team with athletes who are trying to go professional, which means they have no money. They’re training all the time. And they’re desperate to just make some extra money. So you will see the team will hire them to do things such as run social media, answer emails, stuff like that. Is that the same situation? Is that unethical? Or is it because it’s not so much the coach, but a team that’s already hired this person as an athlete? Are they just expanding their role to give them some extra money, or should that be avoided as well? I would
Dr Kate Bennett 30:24
say that’s more in the gray, because when I think about like an amateur or like, you know, a domestic team, the team itself might be completely separate of the coach, right? The athletes coach might live in a completely different state and not even be associated with the team. So it’s different there, but it’s still a power differential that the team decides which races they put you on the roster. For the team decides what you have access to. And so I do think there’s still a power differential there, and it should be, I would say, continually evaluated. To me, social media and social content like that’s just a really stressful situation for these athletes. If we talk about two big stressors among the like the Pro Am population. It’s the dual relationships and having to be an influencer on social media. And so to me, Hey, let’s put you on top of the content. Put it this way, if it’s an athlete who’s recovering from an eating disorder, I guarantee the last thing they want to do is be scrolling content all day long and producing content and creating content. But maybe they need the money. Will they say? No, probably not. Is it in their best interest? Also, no
Trevor Connor 31:25
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Dr Kate Bennett 32:53
Yeah, so I would say, like first and foremost, number one, if you are a coach and the coach athlete relationship, you have the power and so within that, you start to just be thoughtful about like, okay, so me having the power means the athlete feels like they have something to lose if they upset me or disappoint me or do something that I might find to be not in line with my coaching program. So from the start, realizing like I already have the power. They never gave it to me. I just assumed it by becoming their coach with a team. Right as soon as you hire on an athlete, you assume power over that athlete. You are making decisions about where they’re racing, what equipment they get, what training camps they’re going to and so again, you have to realize as soon as you make decisions for somebody else, you have power and authority over them. So with that in mind, when you say, like, how do we ensure we don’t accidentally maybe exploit our power? I think it’s kind of stepping back and evaluating, what are we trying to do in creating this opportunity for this athlete? What harm could come of it? And if I can’t think of any harm, then maybe I need to ask somebody else, because I’m blind to it. I think every situation there is both benefit and there are consequences. And if I can’t see the consequence, that’s where I need to go to my team, my mentors, my colleagues, and say, like, this is what I’m thinking, but I know I’m missing something. What would be the consequences if it didn’t work out? And that helps use and present it to the athlete, more open minded of here’s what I see. The opportunity being these could be some potential consequences. Is it something you’re interested in? How do we continue to assess whether or not it’s working for both of us? What does it look like if it’s not? Let’s create an exit strategy together so we both know how it’s going to end. It doesn’t feel weird or awkward to bring it up when it needs to end.
Trevor Connor 34:40
So the coach, inherently, as you said, has that power. Are there ways that they can give more power to their athletes, and does that benefit the relationship? If the athlete feels they have more power? And this is where I’m thinking about, you think of the old school coach, you know, the 1970s 1980s high school coach, where. Yeah, they had no interest in giving their athletes any power. It’s you do as I say, and I’m just gonna yell on your face, I don’t think that’s the modern style of coaching anymore. Mostly,
Dr Kate Bennett 35:09
no, there are a few of them out there, so I can promise you, there’s a few. But are
Trevor Connor 35:14
there ways for coaches to give athletes more power, and does that help the coach athlete relationship? I
Dr Kate Bennett 35:20
don’t know about give more power, but I would say, give a voice. How do we create a voice for the athlete in this coach athlete relationship? And I think that comes through just really honest inquiry of, how are you doing? What? What do you like about our coach athlete relationship right now? What do you not like? And if it’s maybe an athlete who’s not going to say it to your face, make it an annual or semi annual or quarterly, little survey you send out that Please complete this, let me know what’s working, what’s not working for you. So to me, how do we give power? It’s more. How do we create a voice in this relationship where they know that they can speak openly and honestly and that it won’t impact our relationship negatively? This
Chris Case 35:58
makes me think of a topic that I’ve just recently had a podcast interview with Dr breken on motivational interviewing techniques that allow the athlete to have that voice, have some autonomy, feel like they’re contributing, lessen the imbalance and make it a collaboration, rather than this hierarchy? Would you agree that those techniques can help in serving the relationship and building rapport in that way?
Dr Kate Bennett 36:28
Yeah, I think motivational interviewing is a little bit different in that we’re trying to instigate change, right? We’re trying to change a belief system or a behavior pattern. But that idea of open ended questions I want to hear from you. I value your voice. I value your opinion. What did you like about that block? What did you not like about that block? What do you like about doing our social media? What do you not like about doing our social media, right? Like, just those open ended inquiries, I think, create opportunities for an athlete just maybe to say, like, uh, like, even if they can’t say, I don’t like blank if they pause and think and it seems like they want to say something, but they’re not saying something that, for you as a coach, is something to just keep in mind of, like, okay, there’s something there that we can work towards, even if they can’t say it today.
Chris Case 37:13
I don’t know if you want to go back to dual relationships, but I do have a question there. I’m curious if there are times when dual relationships are beneficial to coach, athlete, relationship, building rapport, building trust. Are there times when it’s okay, or are you saying there really should be a strict line? Maybe
Dr Kate Bennett 37:34
it depends. Yes, it depends. There we go. I think I’m not saying hardcore no on dual relationships. I’m thinking more of like when you are trying to benefit yourself personally by engaging the athlete that those are my hardcore no find somebody else to help you. I do think dual relationships can be helpful. You know, if it’s my athlete and I happen to live in town together and we go out for long rides, that’s a dual relationship, because I’m also training on this ride, but within that, I think that there needs to be clarity of, this is a training ride. I’m not coaching you. I’m not going to expect you to pay me for it. So we’re just going to go out as you know peers, and make that very clear of what are our expectations and so dual relationships I can, I think, can be benign when it’s very clearly discussed ahead of time, what are our expectations and what does it look like other times? And if the athlete says, Can you take me on a training ride, then we discuss that. I charge you for those rides. And so I think clarity is important and just confirming what the expectations are ahead of time, when you say trust and rapport, I don’t think it has to be dual relationship to have a strong relationship, right? You can have trust and rapport. I have that with all of the individuals in my practice, but none of us have a dual relationship, right? And so I think it’s also knowing the nature of the relationship, and how do we build trust and rapport within the context of the coach, athlete relationship, versus feeling like I have to be your friend or I need to be a peer, or I need to become a therapist, role for you to trust me. So I think that that can be effectively established within a coach athlete relationship. At
Chris Case 39:09
the core of almost everything we’ve talked about, I feel is communication like that seems to be the most critical piece here for me, that you have to engage in clear, consistent communication, dialog between coach and athlete, to be on the same page, to have the understanding to resolve things absolutely yes. So the question then becomes, because not everybody is naturally gifted at communication, how do coaches and how do athletes improve that? How do they get to the point where they can have open and honest dialog without fear of negative consequences on either side? Yeah,
Dr Kate Bennett 39:52
it honestly starts with the coach, right? We need a coach who is a strong communicator, and if the coach themself is conflict avoidant, then it’s going to be really hard. Hard for the athletes underneath them to address conflict or resolve conflict. So I think it starts a lot with leadership and role modeling and the coach with regards to tell me what’s working. Tell me what’s not working. Tell me what you liked about this. Tell me what you didn’t like about this. And if the coach starts to open up those questions and welcome feedback, and the coach knows deep down in their core, it is not a personal insult or trying to harm them when their athletes give them negative feedback that, I think starts to establish the foundation that we can talk about anything, everything is safe, as long as it’s respectful and is well intended and it’s explained in a way that we can all understand it. And so it’s not necessarily that we’re gonna start to, you know, insult each other, but more just like we give really honest feedback, whether that’s positive or negative, that’s the value of my coaching business, and I want to hear from you the
Trevor Connor 40:49
thing I would add to that and interest in your response to this, but I think this is another example of why it’s so critical that a good coach is a good listener. We talk a lot on the show about the fact that you can hear in an athlete’s tone of voice that they are starting to get over trained or burned out before you ever see it in the data. So you have to listen to your athlete. You get the signs of how their training is going long before numbers show it seems to me, this is another case where if an athlete’s uncomfortable, if they’re in a bad power dynamic dual relationship they don’t like you need to be listening to the athlete to pick up on
Dr Kate Bennett 41:29
that. Right? Absolutely. And here’s the funny thing, we struggled to listen well. We are so busy checking our text and looking at our email and downloading power files that it’s hard to be a good listener and and I would say, attentive, you know, truly attentive to the feedback that you’re getting through that communication, through their body language, through their tone. And so I absolutely agree with that, and I think to be a good listener, you can’t be distracted at the same time. So
Trevor Connor 41:54
the other thing I wanted to ask about with this whole position of power, are there ways for an athlete to make sure that they have power in the relationship. And one obvious one is they can fire the coach, but are there other ways to make sure they have power?
Dr Kate Bennett 42:09
Yeah. So I think when I’m just thinking an athlete like they need to ask themselves internally, like, Can I Can I be honest with my coach? Can I tell them what is working and what’s not working? And if they feel like the answer is no, or I’ve tried and coach doesn’t hear me, because I do hear this a lot too, like I’ve told Coach blank, and they just blow it off, like, oh, but you have such a great situation. Don’t worry about it. Like if they’re minimizing you or invalidating you when you are bringing up concerns that, to me, would indicate that your voice is not being heard or respected in this relationship would be that would indicate a loss of power. So I would encourage athletes, just really to kind of reflect within themselves, of do I have the courage to say what I need to say? And then how does my coach respond when I say it? And if I feel like I’m minimized or invalidated, I can either confront my coach directly to create awareness of this, or I could fire them. I can move on and try and find a different coach, which is what I tend to see right like, and if a coach has a high turnover with a certain population, they might want to start to look into like, Why? Why am I losing these athletes other than we’ve just naturally outgrown each other? Is there something I’m not providing that they need from me?
Trevor Connor 43:17
Actually, just saw that situation. I was talking with an athlete who’s changing coaches, and she asked me for advice on a good coach, and I was talking about her relationship with her existing coach, and the thing that she brought up was she kept saying to him, I’m not sure this is working. I’m not feeling right. And he would just immediately go, it’s in your head. Just keep doing what I tell you. That
Dr Kate Bennett 43:37
just breaks my heart for that athlete told you they’re still out there, yep, and
Trevor Connor 43:41
it’s exactly what you’re talking about, issue which is being minimized.
Chris Case 43:45
That brings up a question in my mind, because you are a trained professional been working as a psychologist for a long time, I would assume a lot of coaches, I feel like, end up in a position where they are being asked questions that would probably be better asked of a psychologist. So they are put in this position of, oh gosh, I gotta serve in this role, or I have to refer them out. But initially there’s this dilemma inside of them, and you’re using terminology that probably a lot of people have heard, being minimized, validation, all these sorts of things. But I don’t know if every coach out there knows what that means. What does it mean when an athlete comes to you and they tell you something that’s going on? What does it mean? Or how would a coach validate that statement?
Dr Kate Bennett 44:31
To start with, they would acknowledge it. Thank you for sharing this concern with me, right? And use language the concern or your worry I wasn’t aware of that. Can you tell me more? Right? Open Ended listening, that helps them use their voice, but that also, if the coach really is caught off guard, it helps them start to conceptualize, like, what is this athlete talking about that I wasn’t aware of. But I think when we think about validation, or listening is asking more questions to learn what the athlete’s struggle is. Learn. More about what they’re concerned about, and maybe, as we talked about earlier, you don’t always have to have the answer right away. So maybe it’s thank you so much for bringing this to my attention. Let me think about it for a day or two and get back to you on it. And maybe it’s you can’t meet that need. So then it’s a conversation of like, I think it is time to transfer you out, or it is time to get another professional but I’ve listened to you and I’ve heard you, and I’ve come up with a resolution that I think could work for you. Are there any
Chris Case 45:22
other situations or psychological terms that coaches should be familiar with so they can, quote, unquote, speak that language to just a small degree
Dr Kate Bennett 45:31
with regards to, like, invalidation and minimization or just in general? Yeah, I think I mean, obviously the opposite invalidating is validating, and that validating is that idea that I heard you, and I’m listening to you, and I want to learn more about this, and you had mentioned earlier, like, what if this is more of like a psychological problem that’s outside of my scope at that point, that’s where I would say, thank you so much for sharing. I know it took a lot of courage to discuss this, and I really think you deserve that’s an important word. Deserve help on this. Can I help you find a therapist, or can I help you find a nutritionist, or can I help you find a doctor? So I think it’s also that idea that I hear you and I value so much I’m going to help you solve this problem.
Trevor Connor 46:14
The other thing I would recommend, and this is just getting into listening skills. Listen to what the athlete has to say, and then at some point, say, I really appreciate your talking to me. Here’s what I think you are saying to me, or here’s what I’ve heard from you, because that also gives you the opportunity to say something that the athlete might be scared to talk about. So going back to the example we had of that dual relationship where they’re babysitting your kids and they don’t want to be you could say, here’s what I think you’re saying to me. I get the sense that you’re not comfortable babysitting my kid anymore and you’d rather not do it, because if you state it, then they’re somebody who’s conflict averse is more willing to say, yeah, that’s kind of how I feel.
Dr Kate Bennett 46:52
Yes, yeah. That reflective listening and naming it for them. They’re like, Man, I didn’t have to say that took
Chris Case 46:57
the pressure off them. Yes, yes, yeah. You also just make sure that you’re actually on the same page that the person that is saying something to you, you’ve heard it as they intended you to hear it, and vice versa. That restating is critical as
Trevor Connor 47:13
someone racing in the professional peloton for years, Jack Burke is very aware of how these relationships can impact athletes. Let’s hear the advice he has for all athletes,
Jack Burke 47:23
your reputation is the most valuable thing you have, and do not destroy your reputation over a few 1000 euros here or there for this kind of stuff, like whatever you say or write, if you have to bite your tongue a bit, your reputation is worth more. Like, whenever you walk away from a team, you walk away knowing that, like, you don’t have any skeletons in the closet, like something you said that you’re hoping nobody figures out, or something like that,
Trevor Connor 47:45
if your team is putting you in an ethically compromised position, what you’re saying is protect your reputation, which I’m assuming also means do the ethical thing. Yeah. And,
Jack Burke 47:54
I mean, I guess the closest thing I can think of, and this is kind of like a funny story, so I don’t know if you guys can use this, but like, I remember there was one team I was riding on where, like, you’re really pushed to do, like, the sponsor stuff, and they literally held a camera. It was like a hostage video, like they put a camera in front of me and said, Jack, can you say something nice about the clothing? And the clothing was horrible. It was so bad. And so I just said, like, I’m like, I’m not gonna lie, but they’re like, literally, like a hostage video, like camera that your face, Jack, say something good about the clothing? And I just said, yeah, the colors are really good. Like, the colors really came out great. Like, it was really bright. So I was like, I’m not gonna lie, but, like, that’s all I can say. But, and I’m colorblind, so I was like, I mean, oh boy,
Trevor Connor 48:34
so I’m assuming that was not the answer they were looking for no.
Jack Burke 48:38
But I was like, I’m not lying for this. So
Trevor Connor 48:41
I know we want to talk a little bit about a code of conduct, but before we get there, I just had one other question about these dynamics, about the ethics of these relationships. We’ve been talking the whole time about the coach, athlete relationship. Do you get into any of these ethical issues, any of these power dynamics, dual relationships and athlete, athlete relationship.
Dr Kate Bennett 49:02
I’ve certainly seen them amongst teams, where you’ve got teams who maybe once the captain or like the team leader, and then you’ve got somebody underneath them who they feel like actually, a great example would be, it’s not even dual relationship. But when I think about authority and power, the in group and the out group, right? And the in group has power, and they use that power to hurt or harm or ostracize other people on the team. That absolutely is an ethical dilemma that I think teams still struggle with throughout all levels of sport, regardless of sport type or competition level. And so I think within that right, it’s, you know, I’m thinking about myself of if I’m the team owner or I’m the team director, how am I making sure that we don’t, then have power divisions amongst our team based on popularity. That’s a good
Trevor Connor 49:44
point, and I don’t think that’s just with youth athletes, Masters teams, where you have these issues as well. If
Chris Case 49:50
it involves humans, if it involves humans, there’s a chance it’ll happen.
Dr Kate Bennett 49:56
Yes, unfortunately, no human is immune to that, and I. I think it takes a really strong leader to create a culture where everybody feels included and valued. Except Chris, what? Yeah,
Trevor Connor 50:07
we put a lot of work into making sure you feel you feel outside. Thank you. So I think the last thing that we need to ask you about, that I’ve been interested in, is, I know a lot of professional organizations actually have a written code of conduct, and I know you’ve been involved in helping several organizations create those. So tell us a little bit about what’s involved in a code of conduct and why these are important.
Dr Kate Bennett 50:37
Yes, so a code of conduct essentially creates guidelines for what is appropriate and what is not appropriate for professionals in certain fields. The fields go from physicians, medicine, chiropractor, psychology, and then we’re seeing them emerge amongst NGBs and through the usopc. And it’s really meant to be a very clear this is allowed, this is not allowed. As we’ve discussed throughout the day, there are so many areas of gray that not every code of conduct can address every single situation, and that’s where it is important to have that team around you, to be able to ask questions. I have an attorney that I shoot an email probably every other week to, what do you think about this? How should we handle that? And so I think it’s important to understand while that code of conduct is meant to protect both the athletes and the coaches, it does not answer every question, and that’s where having people around you can help answer the gray areas and ethics.
Trevor Connor 51:25
So how enforceable is a code of conduct? Does that depend on the organization? What’s involved when there is a breach of official code of conduct?
Dr Kate Bennett 51:34
It depends on how motivated the person who’s been harmed is. I mean, they can certainly take an attorney, they can sue the coach, they could sue the organization. They could take it as far as they want. So I think it can go quite far. But a lot of times, athletes who have been harmed through dual relationships or Boundary Crossings feel like their voice doesn’t matter, and they just move on and hope it goes away. And so it could be literally, you just lose an athlete too, all the way up to like you’re getting sued for this. The
Trevor Connor 51:59
recommendation I’m going to give to any coaches who are listening to this is, do take this seriously. It’s a good thing to read because we’ve been working on this to help out. USAC, I have gone through some of the codes of conduct, and I think you’d be surprised at some of the things that are in there that you wouldn’t have thought of that actually, when they’re explained to you, go, Hey, that’s really important. And one of the examples that I can think, I don’t think there’s officially in the code of conduct, but it was something that was explained to me again, going back to coaching a junior athlete, let’s say you’re coaching a junior team, you’re traveling, you’re at a hotel together, your junior gets on an elevator by themselves, and you’re going up as well. You can’t get on the elevator with them unless there’s another adult getting on as well. These are the sort of things that you go, you know, a lot of people might not even be aware of that. A lot of coaches go, Hey, what? What’s the explanation behind that? But if you get on that elevator, it can go sideways for you. When you did that completely benignly, never even thought about it. It was actually an important thing to be aware of. So it’s just an example. Might not be the best example, but important for coaches to make sure, if you’re part of one of these governing bodies, read the code of conduct, there might be things in there that you didn’t expect. And
Dr Kate Bennett 53:10
I would add to that, read it annually. It is not my favorite thing to read, but it is something that you need to read annually just to see what’s been updated or changed. And just using that example, Trevor, right? Because maybe the you hop on the elevator unknowing, the juniors on the elevator unknowing, you go up to floor four, and somebody’s parent is at floor four, who knows? Yes, and they make a huge deal about it. That’s from the entire team. Yes, the entire team is now impacted by that naivety, really. And so I do think of it is on the coach. It’s their obligation and their responsibility to know the codes, to know safe sport, to know the minor abuse program, so that they’re not accidentally disrupting their own life as well as the lives of others. It
Chris Case 53:53
seems like it’s not just coaches that should read it annually, but the athletes should know this. It gives them a sense of their, quote, unquote, their rights, correct? And parents too of junior athletes. So everybody is aware of these policies,
Trevor Connor 54:07
correct? I agree. Just to clarify, we’ve talked about the value of safe sport now we’re talking about a code of conduct. These aren’t the same thing, correct,
Dr Kate Bennett 54:15
correct. Safe sport was established really, to prevent sexual abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse, those are called boundary violations, where we can very concretely and directly understand that a human has been harmed in this situation. The code of conduct is meant to protect the nature of the coach, athlete relationship. It’s meant to protect the nature of the sport and the athletes experience. But that doesn’t necessarily include all the nuances of dual relationships and Boundary Crossings, and so it’s important to not only be safe sport trained and to also understand the code of conduct, but to be aware of how that power differential and the influence you have over athletes can also impact them both positively and negatively. Because
Chris Case 54:55
it seems like the code of conduct is a reflection of quote, unquote. The Times, and it does change often, and it also doesn’t capture everything. What would you like to see a code of conduct for a professional enterprise like coaching include that it doesn’t currently include? Yeah,
Dr Kate Bennett 55:13
that’s a great question. Chris, it’s interesting. So my profession psychology, we have a really extensive code of conduct, and that’s in part because back in the 80s, my predecessors in my field were having sex with their patients all the time, and so, like we kind of came down hard on you. Are exploiting these people in your practice. They are emotionally vulnerable. You develop this intimate relationship, and then you use them for your own gratification. And so I would say we have one of the most extensive codes out there because of the way our industry has been exploited in the past. When I started way back, I don’t know, 1520, years ago, read my first codes of conduct, it was very clearly stated that if you Chris were my patient, and we decided that, hey, we just want to be friends. We want to go on bike rides together like I think we could be awesome training partners. We would have to end our therapeutic relationship today. So was today December something, yeah. And wait two years, I could not be your friend for two
Trevor Connor 56:10
years. Wow. Okay,
Dr Kate Bennett 56:13
yes. And in two years, you and I could talk and decide if we still wanted to be friends. That’s how explicit it was. Now the APA American Psychological Association has loosened that up. When I most recently read it a couple years ago, I started to notice that they’re getting rid of this idea that you can’t be in these dual relationships, but go into them very eyes wide open intentionally, know that you can harm people if you’re not careful. And so even our profession that was probably the strictest there was, has loosened it up to realize small towns where maybe there’s only one psychologist like you might need your patient’s mother to cut your hair, like it’s gonna happen in certain areas. So they’ve they’ve relaxed it a bit. But going back to that question with what do I think we need in the codes? I think there needs to be more language about the impact of dual relationships, so that people are more thoughtful and entering them versus it’s just a given that it’s going to work out for everybody. I think we do a lot to prevent abuse, but there’s a lot of this, like unintended harm that’s still happening. Well,
Trevor Connor 57:10
I think that’s probably a good place to end things. So we have a question for our forum, and I’m very interested in seeing some of the responses to this. We’ll set up a forum post for this particular episode, please come and give us your answers, but describe to us a ethical dilemma that you have witnessed or been part of, and talk about how you would have resolved it. What would have been your resolution to that particular dilemma. Very interesting seeing the responses of this, because I think all of us have been in these situations where there is a dilemma and had to deal with it. So would love to see how people have dealt with this in the past, or what you seen and with that you’re new to the show. Sometimes we end our episodes with what we call our take homes. So this is a one minute tell our audience what you think is the most pertinent lesson to take from this episode of the most important thing that you want them to learn with that. We’ll start with
Dr Kate Bennett 58:05
you. I would encourage all coaches to step back and evaluate the nature of their coach, athlete relationships, really thinking about, where do I think I’m being helpful? How might I be crossing boundaries, and could there be any unintended harm consequences? And if so, how would I address those? Or how am I going to address those?
Trevor Connor 58:24
Good answer? Chris, you have one.
Chris Case 58:25
I’m definitely not an expert in this area, but again, what I see here is the necessity for good communication between coaches and athletes, and if you’re taking that role as a coach, it behooves you, it’s required of you, to really understand sound communication, principles, empathy, putting yourself in the shoes of an athlete and really serving them with kindness and care, and looking at it from that you know, stepping back at times to understand what am I doing here, and am I taking the right approach?
Trevor Connor 58:57
So I think my take home as a coach, I always tried to be very ethical, and am still surprised by the number of ethical dilemmas that I found myself in and how difficult it can be to come to the right resolution. So my take home is just to be aware of the fact that you are going to be in these situations. Make sure you have done your homework, read the code of ethics, done your safe sport so that you know how to deal with these situations. Because I think, yes, we’ve all heard about the Larry Nassar, the predators that were just truly horrible people, but you’d be surprised how often coaches and athletes can, with the best of intentions, find themselves in a bad situation that they never intended to be in in the first place.
Dr Kate Bennett 59:39
As you were saying, ethical and principled. I obviously care a lot about ethics and principle and integrity. I have found over the years, and this is just for all the coaches out there, that sometimes being the ethical coach isn’t being the fun coach, and it feels like you’re like the drag on the team or the drag in the scene, but ultimately, you develop the respect and the following over time that athletes will come back. For because they know they can count on you and trust you and believe in you. And so sometimes it might not feel like you’re the coolest coach out there, but by far, you’re gonna have a long lasting legacy on these athletes
Trevor Connor 1:00:09
agreed. So thanks for coming on the show. This was fun. Thank you for
Dr Kate Bennett 1:00:11
having me. That was another
Trevor Connor 1:00:13
episode of fast talk. The thoughts and opinions expressed in fast talk are those of the individual subscribe to fast talk wherever you prefer to find your favorite podcast, be sure to leave us a radio and a review. As always, we love your feedback. Tweet us at at fast talk labs, join the conversation at forums, dot fast talk labs.com or learn from our experts at fast talk labs.com for Dr Kate Bennett, Robbie, Ventura, Dr Stacy Brixham, Jack Burke and Rob pickles. I’m Trevor Connor. Thanks for listening.
