What is the healthy way to get to race weight?
We are joined by Dr. Philip Goglia, a nutritionist to the stars (and Phil Gaimon) to discuss safe and effective ways to drop weight, how to best fuel your training, and why paying close attention to your food matters.
Episode Transcript
Trevor Connor 00:00
Hey everyone. Before we start this podcast we need to add a quick disclaimer. We’re taking on a real hot topic in today’s episode. If you think training science is heavily debated, come spend some time in the nutrition world. Outside of velonews. I wear another hat myself as the editor of nutritional science website. I get to see every day how heavily contested nutrition science can be. I certainly have my biases, and I try to keep them out of our podcasts, which is part of why we invited a guest to cover nutrition today. Kaylee and I enjoyed having Dr. goalie on our show. He’s done a lot to help many people, including elite cyclists. My personal biases aside, I think the practical suggestions he gives would help most if not all of our listeners be healthier, stronger athletes. That being said, we have to be true to who we are. I’m putting on my nutrition hat for a minute. I can’t fully agree with a fair amount of the science used to explain his advice. I think if we asked Dr. golia, he’d agree with what I’m about to say. He was not trying to give hard science but be more metaphoric to make the advice digestible, no pun intended. We’ve given you some hard science podcasts in the past and pride ourselves in trying to give you the best science. For this one, we recommend you focus more on the suggestions and overall approach. And with that, let’s get fast.
01:19
Welcome to Fast Talk developed news podcast and
01:22
everything you need to know to ride like a press
01:32
that bases a mode where people don’t care about how fast you go. That’s the time to go to food, jail and lose your weight. Why would you work on losing weight when you’re in competition in that competition platform like when you are racing every weekend or every other weekend? Why would you restrict your foods to such a point that you’re on low sugar patterns or low fat patterns to try to drop your weight, when in fact at that point, you should be on a competition food program that enhances performance and promotes recovery and reduces inflammation. So the best time to lose your weight is in a season, which is counterintuitive for most endurance athletes.
02:10
Hello and welcome Fast Talk. I’m Kaylee fretts, senior editor here at velonews. sitting across the table from Trevor Connor, our longtime training columnist. Today we’ll talk about losing weight, how to do it properly and safely when to focus on dropping pounds and why a diet solution for you is likely look very different from that of your riding buddies. We’ll chat with Dr. Philip golia, nutritionist to the stars. He’s worked with Jennifer Aniston, Khloe Kardashian, Chris Pratt, and perhaps slightly more relevant to our listeners here. canadel dropbacks. Phil Guymon, he definitely knows bikes. Just a small warning. Dr. golia joins us from Crete via Skype. So the audio quality does drop off occasionally, you can still tell what he’s saying. Let’s make you faster.
Trevor Connor 02:53
The question that we’re we want to ask you today is really about getting down to race weight. I think this is something that almost every one of our listeners is really interested in. So I guess really the the first thing we want to ask you or hit you with is what is your overall recommendation for getting down to race weight, and how because I know a lot of people use techniques that wouldn’t be considered healthy, what is the healthy way to get to a good race weight by the by the spring by March,
03:22
other than eating tomatoes and some tuna fish and sick and smoking cigarettes. You will so so this is how I see it with with cyclists and, and triathletes as well, you know, any endurance sport athlete that there are basically three levels to the season, there’s your competition portion of the season, there is your base season where you’re working up in the miles and training strategies to prepare for your race or performance season. And then there’s a decondition point of the season. So let’s take deconditioning first, your race season is over. And now you decondition and the purpose of deconditioning is to create a conditioning platform so that you can condition at a higher level and really break through your ceiling of your most highest level of conditioning from your previous season. Like if you don’t decondition it’s very hard to condition above that ceiling that you’re at and create momentum and push through. So deep conditioning is like a three week process of doing absolutely nothing and really turning into a couch potato, rice, you know, and not worrying about anything just like Schilling, some people do it longer. So if you will do two for four and five weeks, you know, I because of my mentality and the way my brain works, I can barely do it for two weeks. I just get I get upset about it. We do horrible, but after you decondition then you’re in this base season mode. And within bases in so many cyclists and triathletes as well, they think well, I can still eat anything I want as long as I put in some long slow miles and start to work into my interval training path. patterns in some time in the gym. And that’s not necessarily true.
Trevor Connor 05:04
I was gonna say I see that all the time I have athletes do these big volume training weeks and they think, Oh, great, I got pizza every night, I’m gonna drop weight and then the week they’re four pounds heavier?
05:14
No, they can’t they can’t do that that base season mode where people don’t care about how fast you go. That’s the time to go to food, jail and lose your weight. Why would you work on losing weight when you’re in competition in that competition platform, like when you are racing every weekend or every other weekend? Why would you restrict your foods to such a point that you’re on low sugar patterns or low fat patterns to try to drop your weight, when in fact, at that point, you should be on a competition food program that enhances performance and promotes recovery and reduces inflammation. So the best time to lose your weight is in a season, which is counterintuitive for most endurance athletes.
Trevor Connor 05:54
So it’s really you want to whatever you’re gonna race at, you want to be hitting that way by your first race and then in the during the season, you’re just saying maintain the weight.
06:04
Absolutely. And in fact, because the competition season can be so grueling, chances are you’ll drop a few more pounds anyways. But ideally, let’s say you want your race weight to be 160 pounds, so in towards the end of bases and go find 155 and come up five pounds as you move into your race season, so that you feel strong and nutritionally supported. And at that point, you’ve also figured out your inflammatory factors, you know what foods promote your inflammation, your knowing how to reduce them in between your your race weekends, or your stage races, and you’ve got a much more strategic foundation to forecast your performance.
Trevor Connor 06:46
So take it a step back when you said identify your inflammatory foods. A lot of our listeners might not know what you mean by that. So what’s an inflammatory food and how do you identify it?
06:56
Well, there’s so there are some basic inflammatory foods so anything that is yeast and mold and sugar bound is number one. So yeast, mold, sugar, gluten, refined sugars, those are the things we generally stay away from. And an example of that would be bread breads, muffins, bagels, white bread, sandwich breads. Anything that is used in sugar bound will promote inflammation. Rather than choosing multi ingredient carbohydrates like bread, breads, muffins, bagels, soy breads, choose single ingredient carbohydrates like potatoes, rice, yams, oatmeal, oh flakes, oh puffs, look at your carbohydrate and ask it, how many ingredients are in you. And if they tell you more than one, don’t eat it, as well. Dairy dairy is very highly inflammatory. So very, like if you line up to one of the best athletes in the world. You said to them, Hey, you guys, I came here to take your dairy or you wouldn’t get one because dairy is like eating moderately hard phlegm.
07:46
You know what I mean? So, so
Trevor Connor 07:49
I have never heard that description. But I love that cue. Come on.
07:53
It’s like very little modest, moderately hard, slim.
08:00
I’m sorry, is it so inappropriate? I’m completely unapologetic. I can’t help it.
Trevor Connor 08:05
You know, actually, I read this study or book A while ago, and I can’t even remember his name now. But it was the last true native, untouched Native American. It was a story about when he lived in the hills of California. And he came down to San Francisco, and became westernized and they kept a record of how he did the first time he had milk as an adult was when in his 50s. And he hated it. And he had very limited vocabulary. So what he kept saying was, it ruins my singing voice. And as he learned more English, he basically said it just made it made him really Fleming. He didn’t like it. So it’s really interesting. It’s your that’s the way you’re describing it.
08:45
Yeah, no, it’s a it’s like eating phlegm for sure. So I mean, when you think about it, it adversely affects the utilization of oxygen, which is why as max Maddox, generally speaking, don’t consume any dairy. And it promotes gastric heat, which is about the last thing you want on a bicycle. Otherwise, you’d be farting all over yourself. So, so maybe we try to manage gastric heat and an endurance sport, which is why we stay away from high fructose corn syrups, and things like that. So again, the inflammatory guys, no yeast, no mold, no dairy, no gluten,
Trevor Connor 09:19
going back to so you’re talking about great place to drop weight as in the base season. So we have an athlete now let’s say they want to take off 1520 pounds. What are the general strategies for them is it’s simply a matter of calories in calories out step on the scale frequently and if the weights not going down, start skipping dessert, or are there a lot better strategies they can take and healthier strategies?
09:44
That’s a good question. You know, most most folks think it’s calories in calories out, but that’s making an assumption that all calories are created equally. When in fact, they’re not like for instance, me because I’m fat and protein efficient, I utilize a fat calorie much differently than I utilize. As a sugar calorie or carbohydrate calories and energy source, one spikes and drops me and then one like fat provides me with a long chain release of energy. So all calories are not created equally. We don’t utilize them equally as well as it relates to your macronutrients, fats, proteins and carbohydrates. So it’s not necessarily calories in calories out. In fact, most athletes have problems losing weight because they’re under eating. How about that?
Trevor Connor 10:27
Okay, that one you have to explain.
10:30
All right, so you guys are coaches and familiar with nutrition? What’s the definition of a calorie?
10:38
I am not a coach or nutrition.
10:44
So I am a I’m a reporter. So my whole job is to find people who know what they’re talking about, like yourself, if I remember correctly from from high school science, a calorie has something to do with? Uh
10:57
Oh, god.
11:02
I’m thinking back to bio here. Give me a hint, hint. All right.
11:07
A calorie is a unit of measure,
11:09
right? Heat feet? That’s right. We used to heat it up water or something like that, right? It’s the
Trevor Connor 11:15
amount of energy required to heat. Sorry, it’s about there. I’ve heard there’s a couple different definitions. But they’re all basically the same. It’s the amount of heat or energy that’s required to heat a liter of water one degree Celsius,
11:28
right? And viguerie they go. So we can we can say calories or heat energy units, right? Yep.
Trevor Connor 11:35
Just you know, I threw that one a Caleb, because I did my Master’s in nutrition. So I knew the answer.
11:41
I love that. That’s outstanding. So if calories are heat energy units, then let’s make a distinction about metabolism. Is it as metabolism something that’s fast or slow? Or is it hot or cold?
Trevor Connor 11:55
Well, so personally, whenever somebody says I have a slow metabolism or a fat, fast metabolism, that’s one of my soapbox is, I always say there’s no such thing as a faster slow metabolism. metabolism is just the, the net sum of the energy that you burn over the course of a day,
12:14
or the number. So burning means cheat, right? burning means you’re creating a pattern. If metabolism is a function of heat, if a calorie is a heat energy unit, then fat only converts to energy in a calorically hot environment. So if you under eat metabolically, you are cool. So you’ll hoard fat and waste muscle. So all the training that we do all the workouts, can we consider that a catabolic event?
12:42
Absolutely.
12:44
All right. So metallic. So your training is not something that changes physique. It’s something that breaks down tissue, it’s a catabolic event. And as athletes, we want to do that we want to create that catabolic event, but then we want to stick a wedge in it and stop it because it’s a highly inflammatory event. Agreed. Great. All right, so we’ve created this inflammatory catabolic event. Now we want to stick a wedge in it and stop it. So how do you do that? You stop it with your nutrition, with your hydration and your recovery like sleep. So firstly, nutritionally speaking, if there aren’t enough calories in that program to promote pair, if there’s not enough heat to generate the use of fat as an energy source, while training, you will remain catabolic and waste that tissue that you just broke down. So yes, you lose weight, but you just lost the wrong stuff.
13:39
How does an amateur find the balance there? I mean, is are there other indicators, other indicators to the sort of the lay person that you’re you’re wasting away in the wrong way?
13:51
Well, let’s just say you, you know, you’re you’re back into your training mode, so to speak. And you notice that as each week passes, you’re more sore. And as you’re doing a 20 minute FTP or you’re doing a standard climb that you do you know, every Wednesday morning, your time isn’t improving, it’s getting worse, then chances are you’ve got a caloric problem. It’s starting to waste muscle, and you’re there you’re scratching your head, you say Damn, I’m five pounds down. But I’m not any faster up the hill. So what have you just lost?
Trevor Connor 14:26
A lot of riders think the pros regularly practice extreme weight loss programs, but that’s not really the case. In fact, slow and careful seems to be the approach is 2015 US National Road champion. Matthew Shea tells us to do it slowly. Just a little
14:43
Whoa, yeah, for sure. You don’t don’t crash diet that doesn’t help you. You might cut weight quick, but then your body rebounds and you either put more weight on or Yes, you can’t train as well. And then you come to a racing you just aren’t any good. So It’s important to slowly and be consistent with it.
Trevor Connor 15:05
You keep your way pretty much the same year round, or do you still think, let it come up a little in the offseason and bring it back.
15:13
I stay pretty consistent.
15:16
I have a big goal race, I try and try and cut a little bit. But generally, it’s just a personal preference not to, not to put weight on and take it off is. I don’t like to do that.
Trevor Connor 15:31
Right. And I think the the theme I’m hearing from you and tell me if this is correct, is if you’re trying to drop the weight, the best strategy is not the calorie counter, especially because if you download one on your phone, and then you plug into two slices of pizza, you just say you’re gonna cry, because that was your total day’s calories. So what you’re saying is, you’re better if you eat right, if you eat healthy, if you eat the right foods, then all that non metabolic, relatively useless fat that you’ve stored is going to start coming off somewhat naturally, and you don’t need to watch the calories. And maybe just in the base season, just be a little bit careful, don’t over consume, maybe cut back a little bit and the weights gonna come off. Is that what you’re saying?
16:17
For sure, for sure. And they season
16:22
in bases and in in your competition season, watch your nutrient patterns and know what each what know what each nutrient is responsible for doing. So if you feel like you’re inflamed or fatigue, like you’re kind of pedaling behind your circle, you know, and you’re losing water, or your protein pattern for too low. So remind yourself, the best time to repair muscle tissue is when your body is at rest. Are you consuming enough protein at night. And if you look down at your plate, and you see a hand size amount of protein, which is essentially equal to about four ounces of protein like a chicken breast, then chances are you’re eating like a little anorexic female. So you should probably double your like Phil gaming, the guy consumes almost 16 ounces of protein at dinner. That’s cooking, it’s almost 20 ounces before cooking. Yeah, Edward it’s not a small amount of protein. And it works.
Trevor Connor 17:19
What I used to travel to the races with my team, they of course the night before the race was to do the giant pasta party with all the past the sauce on it. Okay, that’s what I have to eat out to have two pounds of this. And then they’d look at me and I’d have this giant piece of salmon with vegetables. And they couldn’t understand me, they could not get it.
17:38
Yeah, you hit you hit the holy grail like I’m so I’m so glad you said that. Because now you’re promoting a deep REM sleep, your body will release more growth hormone, you’ll sleep deeper and that stage four sleep, you’ll wake up more refreshed. So if you are active, then remember that your performance and your physique is 80% Kitchen 20% gym, or 20% on the road. And that sounds so weird to say, but but your endurance capacity, your strength capacity, and your ability to recover is all built in the kitchen. It’s not built in the gym. So let’s look at this for a second. I was a I was a Mr. North America as a bodybuilder. My offseason weight was 315 pounds, my competition weight was 265 my metabolic temperature was 280 degrees, I was eating 7000 calories a day. The more muscle tissue you have, the more food you need. So it’s not a function of calories in calories out anymore. It’s a function of establishing a heat pattern to support the amount of activity that you create on a daily and weekly basis. And then think about this. Here’s a good question. If you were if you were anabolic if you’re creating muscular density as each week passes, should you increase your food?
19:06
I would assume so. Yes. Yeah.
19:11
So that as so then as people lose weight as athletes even lose weight, why do they eat less? Mm
19:19
hmm. Athletes
19:24
that’s like a thing.
19:28
I’m trying I’m trying as a coach, you must see it all the time. athletes will come to you and they’re digging a hole. Like They’re digging a big hole and you say man, you need to take a week off because you’re digging a hole you will be able to Goddess is digging a hole overtraining or is it under eating?
Trevor Connor 19:43
What you said at the very beginning really resonates about the drop weight in the in the base season and then really focus on being healthy during the season. That’s the biggest thing that I’ve noticed in the bases and if you’re a little tired if you can’t win the Sprint’s who cares in January But I do find shit butts up.
20:03
Who gives a shit? Right? Okay.
Trevor Connor 20:04
Right. But during the season, yes, if an athlete starts under eating, they can’t handle the training because that’s when the training starts to get really intense. As you pointed out, it’s very catabolic, that’s when they actually start breaking down muscle tissue. And by this point, they’re out of the weight room, so there’s no anabolic effect going on, they start losing the muscle tissue, they start losing strength, the immune system starts breaking down. And that’s when they burn out. And I agree with you completely often, it’s just look, get off the bike for a couple days go eat, go eat, and they start feeling right.
20:40
They start feeling better, but but most folks, including athletes have a very adversarial relationship with food. And if asked, they’ll say, yeah, food makes you fat, you got to train your ass off, and you really need to limit your calories. And that’s the general status quo out there. That’s what people really believe athletes are not. So to present this type of information, I think is huge. Don’t be afraid to eat your food. And use your food as a catalyst to increase training intensity and muscular strength. Because ultimately, you want to drop the stuff you want to drop weight that is non functional tissue. And that’s body fat. That’s fat that is non functional tissue that your functional tissue or muscle has to tow it around. So if I can get you to keep your muscle and you can stay anabolic, like promoting tissue repair, and drop eight pounds of fat. I’ve increased your wattage per kilogram, and I’ve made your bike eight pounds lighter, which is wicked expensive if you try to do it with mechanic.
Trevor Connor 21:38
Right.
21:39
So is this why I’m not just just purely anecdotally, I mean, obviously, I spend a lot of time around a lot of different pros and and have for some time, it seems like they’re getting skinnier and skinnier and skinnier. And the you know, for a long time, we always sort of assumed if you lost too much weight, you’re going to end up losing power. It doesn’t seem to be the case anymore. Is this because we have come into sort of new understandings of nutrition and how to lose weight properly? Or how I mean, how are these guys doing it? I mean, there’s there’s there’s always these sort of, there’s a there’s banter on Twitter and things like that, like how is it possible for these guys to lose so much weight without losing power? Is it is it legitimately possible?
22:19
It is certainly legitimately possible. I mean, I see it every day in my clinic when I work with the elite endurance athletes we have run through there. So if you are more savvy with your foods, then you know that you will create this propulsion effect this, this, this effect the fat utilization that is consistent throughout your day and throughout your week. But keep in mind that these athletes if nutritionally coached correctly on a weekly basis, if they’re adding muscle density to their to their body composition, then the calories are increasing in 10, or 12% increments every seven to 10 days. So you can figure that a food program, a true correct metabolic Food Program has the life of about seven days, maybe 10 days Max, and within that period, if you’re really on your game, you’ll drop 1.3% body fat within that seven to 10 days. But the end at the end of that that food program you’re on will match your body composition and you will not change. So something has gone on within that seven to 10 days. So what is going on? Well, I’ve dropped body fat, I’ve reduced non functional tissue by say 1.3% I have increased my lean mass, maybe even just half a pound. But even if it is only half a pound or, or a pound of lean tissue that requires more calories in, so bump your calories in 10 or 12% increments, and then you’ll be elevated. You’ll drop body fat again across the course of the next seven days, you will increase lean tissue again. So to maintain that anabolic event and make caloric shifts every 710 days is really, really important. And then consistent patterning is important. So we know like kind of the science of nutrition and what we know about metabolism is that it takes 48 hours to establish a heap pattern. Like when you were given a food program, it takes your body 48 hours to understand it and figure out that caloric eat at the end of those 48 hours then you can start counting off your timeline or the days of the week. So you start this thing and the first two days are a no brainer. You’re just so focused that that wild horses couldn’t drag you off your food so day one is great day two is great day three is great. But let’s say in day four moods events something happens and you miss manage your caloric pattern or your meal pattern. If you miss manage your meal pattern you must manage calories if you miss manage calories you miss manage heat, if you miss manage heat metabolism cools and you lose that day that you’re in for the efficient use of fat so there’s one day lost. Now it takes you 48 hours to recreate your pattern again. So how many days did you just lose? last three, if you do that twice a week, you’ve lost six, the week is gone. So maintain your food pattern, create consistent caloric structures within your day, take one date night meal a week, eat whatever you want, get it out of your system, and then create these heat patterns in the other five day increments.
Trevor Connor 25:21
We asked Phil Guymon about weight loss. And he agreed that it’s far more complex than the lowest number on your scale.
Phil Gaiman 25:32
To see what the last, the lowest weight that they’ve ever been, and then decide that their race weight and they’re just constantly chasing it, which kind of a smart way to do it is to look at is to sort of log your weight over like do your best eat healthy, all that stuff and log your weight over a period of years. And then you kind of have a record of when your best results took place what your weight was, and that’s probably the time that you that you want a big race or whatever you felt your best will be that that’s what your Raceway should be. So you kind of like backtrack, and from there and again, like that various 10 years. So like, in in March, I come out of a, you know, a good winter and bass training, and it’s kind of, you know, not traveling and I’m, I’m efficient, whatever. You know, I’ll be 148 pounds. And then this time of year where it’s hot out, you’re frying every day, it’s kind of it’s more like 152 but you know, the the body composition is the same or less season progresses. I mean, like you eat right, you exercise, I think it’s I think it’s 80% diet, honestly, when you’re over, you know, 10% when you’re when you really have weight to lose, it’s almost all what you eat. So you see nutritionist you keep it down. And I mean, the goal, like you know, I’m not sure what is for for men or for women, but it’s I’m sure you could look it up. It’s it’s for men, you don’t want to go really less than 5%. I’ve been down there, it’s kind of not planned, but it kind of just happens to you. And it’s like you can, you might feel good at four and a half percent, but you’re going to get sick, right? So and so once you get to four and a half percent, if you kind of start a stage race that way or something or a long training block, like there’s going to be a day where you where you don’t eat enough breakfast and you kind of blow up because there’s nothing in there. And but but five to 5% I always feel good, I’m energized, whatever sort of I mean, it’s a crucial, you know, day of fat that you could sort of live off of this. If things go you know, if you get an early break in a race or you have a massive training right to get lost something like that.
27:47
Above and beyond that determine your metabolic structure. I’m not sure if if there are many athletes out there that really understand that there are three metabolic types that exist. So either someone is fat and protein efficient or carbohydrate efficient or duel. These three structures were discovered years ago, back in the early 80s. Through the decay of this rice diet at Duke University, Duke had started a food program called the rice diet and an ml net with a horrible death as people started to gain weight and and promote inflammatory factors because of high sugar patterns or high rice patterns that back in the early 80s precon was huge on the West Coast with a high carbohydrate food plant. So frickin was huge on sugars. But he was working with an elderly population for coronary care that were not very active. So when when the rice diet came into play in the early 80s, there was a segment of that population that were was on the rice diet that was trying to lose weight and manage coronary care, they’re actually gaining weight and falling asleep. And it’s because they didn’t utilize sugars effectively as an energy source. In fact, it was inflaming them and promoting diabetic responses like elevated trigs and elevated xba one C. So what they had within their lipid profiles were very high HDL is very low LDL is like this great capacity to utilize fat as an energy source, but a very poor capacity to utilize sugars and nobody was looking at it profiles at the time. So ultimately look at profiles were assessed. They saw that this population that was consuming rice and high sugars was actually inflamed. So he pulled them off the rice we gave them fatty fish and peanut butter and lo and behold they started losing weight like crazy. So there is more than one metabolic structure. So for instance, if you’re a cyclist and there’s diabetes in your family background, why would you be on a high carbohydrate food plan? just doesn’t make sense. If you’re an inter if your endurance or anybody endurance athlete or anybody and there’s a there’s a coronary history of plaque buildup and your family history, why would you choose a high fat high protein food program for yourself? These things are genetic. They don’t skip. They don’t skip generations. So they’re generational and by nature So you have to look at your friendly background, look at your living profile and determine what nutrients you best use. For instance, me I’m fat and protein efficient if I eat more than one cup of rice a day on the shoe postal workers and take naps, I’m out of my mind.
Trevor Connor 30:15
I was gonna say, so this is really experimental. Each person just needs to try and see where their profile is at.
30:23
Yeah, I mean, even you can even ask your doctor for your lipid profile. And you can look at that the reading within your lipids and you can say, well look at my HDL, athletes want to be 70 and over 35 is zero and my steels are our 75. But a great capacity I have to utilize fat and protein effectively as an energy source. Wow, look at my LDL is my bad guy. fats, they’re substantially under 100. Man, I transport fat really well. Oops, look at my triglycerides levels, they’re they’re 175 they’re 200 that regardless, they’re over 110 Wow, I really don’t have that much of an ability to utilize sugar so well. So you know, I am more fat and protein deficient than I am sugary vision. The reverse could be true. The reverse could be that you have very low HDL is this low capacity transport fat and fat effectively very high LDL like an LDL of over 160. So you store fat easily, but maybe a very low triglyceride level, which is a sugar management indicator. So maybe a triglyceride level of under 110. Maybe it’s 80, maybe 70. Maybe it’s 40. So high capacity to utilize sugars effectively. So now you’ve got somebody that is carbohydrate deficient?
31:33
It’s there’s a lot of numbers and a lot of acronyms thrown around here. For sort of your average amateur athlete or the resources online, are there. I mean, should they all go find themselves a professional nutritionist? Or are there ways to do this on your own?
31:48
Well, there’s certainly ways to do it on your own. I mean, you can look through our website at PSC nutrition calm. You can Google anything about living profile assessment, and metabolic typing and good information will pop up for you. But for example, let’s just say let’s say your foods are clean, and you’ve chosen a high carbohydrate food plan. And you still don’t feel like you’re on your game and you’re bonking and crashing and they’re falling apart. Midway through your rides or training. Though you’re eating healthfully. The question is are you eating healthfully in the right macronutrient patterns that best suits you? So now you need to take a look at your research and maybe redefine and reassess your foods. One of the ways they can go on and assess metabolic structure. There is a questionnaire on the G plans calm okay website. So I have arac nutrition, you can log on to G plan calm, it’ll take you through your entire metabolic typing questionnaire. And if you have bloodwork available, you can type in your bloodwork and push in pops up gives you your metabolic structure very cool.
Trevor Connor 32:53
Now or they’re about to ask you for general strategies or approaches or foods that people should eat. But I have a feeling your answer is going to be every individual is different. But are there any sort of recommendations you can give? And by the way, Phil Guymon gave me a bit of an outline of the diet that you have mom, which sounds sounds fascinating. I want to share that at all. But it was
33:18
awesome. first met for Christ’s sake. Um, you know,
33:23
Phil had a big leap, a big leap nutritional.
33:28
But yeah, I mean, we share Phil’s food program. Absolutely. But most importantly, it’s like, initially, it’s like the understanding of what each macronutrient is and what it does. So proteins, when you think protein, just think meat with eyes. That’s just the simplest way to break it out. So chicken, fish, steak, Turkey, eggs, something that can bite you or run after you or swim or has a heartbeat. That’s a protein and it’s for tissue repair. And then there’s carbohydrate, carbohydrate is a sugar, so anything that isn’t protein, or a fat. And fats are only found in proteins and nuts and seeds. So it’s not a it’s not a protein which contains your fats, then everything else is a sugar.
Trevor Connor 34:09
And I have to interject here because I hear this all the time the number, people need to understand that when they think carbohydrates, they think breads, they think candy, things like that. But people also need to understand that fruits and vegetables are also carbohydrate sources, their primary lettuce
34:25
leadership. Right? I mean, it’s not it’s not a fat, and it’s not a protein, right. So it’s a sugar. So yeah, your lettuce leaf is a sugar your fruits are sugar, your potatoes or sugar or your breads or sugar. If it’s not me with eyes, it’s sugar or not.
34:43
I try to W down What can I tell you?
Trevor Connor 34:45
I actually just wish we had a chalkboard right here so that we could just put a little flowchart on there. Does it have eyes? Yes, it’s a protein. Does it not have eyes? Okay. Move to the next question.
34:58
Go here. Yeah. So, so, uh, so it’s under just under it’s important to understand the distinction between those macronutrients. And then once you do, then you say, all right, well, when do I need these things, so in the beginning of your day to kind of start your day, generally speaking maybe harmless or whatnot metabolic structure, you have like just talking general nutrition, it’s important to get a little bit of each thing in. So I would say like an ideal meal for breakfast would be a one ingredient starch like an oatmeal or, or a cup of rice or a big potato or a yam even with a fat and protein grouping like a couple of eggs, maybe even three. And then a simple sugar like a fruit of a mid morning snack might be a combination of sugar and fat, like a fruit of 12 almonds, or a fruit and a tablespoon of almond butter. Lunch would have a starch in it like a like a potato, or rice or yam or sweet potato, you know, one portion eight ounce yam or one cup of rice with four to six ounces of protein like chicken, fish, steak, Turkey, eggs, and then some kind of vegetable for digestion, to afternoon snacks, both sugar and fat. So you know, like a fruit and 12, almonds and a fruit and 12, almonds and then dinner. And then you got to ask yourself, like when is the best time to repair muscle tissue. And that’s when your body’s not doing anything, that’s when your body’s at rest. So the best time to consume your protein, your largest protein pattern is at night. And then vegetables for digestion. If you consume a yam or a potato or rice or pasta at night, it’s an energy source food, it’s not like you’re going to run a marathon after dinner, you’re going to pet so kind of taken up protein. So again, what will what kind of proteins to consume at night so you’ve got a choice, you’ve got poultry, you’ve got red meat, you got fish, seafood, the red meat and fish choices are best consumed in the evening chain when you really take a look at it as a moderately low fat meat. And after that it’s benign. It doesn’t bring much the performance table so if you’re going to have it, have it at lunch, but the red meats offer a high um adequate level their high iron so like a lean red meat like a filet or flank steak or hanger steak. It’s using fish the Omega fish oils, the essential fatty acids and that fish promote a deep REM sleep so your body releases or finds a deep REM sleep releases more growth hormone your burn more fat, repair more muscle tissue your metabolism is more efficient and omegas force years are known to reduce inflammation so it’s highly and it’s a highly anti inflammatory beneficial protein. So choose your surface or patterns at night like a fatty fish like salmon, sea bass, black hot arctic char, or your steak create an AB pattern. So one night is fish one night is at least take like a filet or flank steak and alternating back and forth. Yeah. And then we actually use this thing called a mash after dinner all all the endurance athletes have decided to call it master because nobody knows what the goal is thing. But is it is essentially a one ingredient starts like a potato or rice or yam or one cup of oatmeal or one cup of shredded wheat even with one cup of applesauce dumped on top of it with one tablespoon of almond butter dumped on top of that with one tablespoon of jam dumped on top of that, crunch it all up, eat it go to bed.
38:19
Think that’s good match. And then when you wake up in the morning, have your mash again, it’s when you’ve got a big ass ride ever match again and add two eggs to it. Consume that mash and your two eggs two hours prior to your ride so that you’ve got full digestion and then climb on the bike. And that gets you the first hardcore 40 minutes a ride time. And then at that point, it’s a sugar only like initiate a sugar only pattern that gets you about 30 minutes of ride time and then all your intermediate ride patterns are sugar fat groupings. So figure out what sugar fat snack you like via bonk breaker bar, or the Justin’s flavored nut butter packs which are fantastic the chocolate hazelnut is the the most liquid of them all and use the sugar fat patterns in your intermediate portions of your ride because if you were to use shivers only you’ll out pedal your body’s ability to absorb the amount of carbohydrate or glucose you need to maintain your pedaling and your wattage output. At some point you’ll over pedal your ability to absorb sugar and then you’ll promote all this gastric heat and then you’ll fall off your bike and walk when so as envy sort of fat patterns are done in like 40 minute increments. So every 40 minutes you hit a sugar, fat sugar, fat, sugar fat when you know that you’re an hour out from the barn. It’s sugar caffeine. And perhaps the best sort of caffeine grouping out there is a product called second surge. So the GAVI based so it’s going to be a low heat pattern based gel and the gel is very liquidy it’s not like a pasty gel. It’s almost syrupy. It goes down in a heartbeat. So it’s sort of caffeine an hour out from the bar and another sort of caffeine when you’re 30 minutes out from the barn and then you’re home. But if you’re to use caffeine early on in your ride, because caffeine is known for sugar transport or the increased capacity of sugar transport, you risk balking at a faster rate as you miss time your sugar input. In fact, one of the best sugars out there to use above and beyond something like a honey Stinger, for example, is a new company called untapped which is just Grade B maple syrup and a little tear off pack. But that maple syrup is fantastic because it’s a it’s a very dense mineral base. And it’s lovely scenic, it’s not highly sweet.
Trevor Connor 40:43
Phil definitely doesn’t eat hot dogs anymore. He’s been working with Dr. golia for a while now and it’s found an approach to nutrition that is allowed him to perform it as best he shares a few other secrets including a recovery shake that he had to learn to love.
Phil Gaiman 40:57
But so any it’s real basic like he’ll he’ll give you a meal plan and it starts with you know, for eggs and spinach for breakfast or eggs and kale for breakfast and then you know carbs being a long ride and then a recovery shake after the ride and then chicken breasts and then for dinner a steak or fish and then you know for dessert, like some applesauce with almond butter in it like so we’ll have this sort of little meal plan that it’s something that like, it’s things that I like that are all healthy combination of stuff. And when I’m at home for a certain period, I I I’m religious with with that I kind of just eat that every day I stick to his plan, which is you know, it’s just drinking a lot of water eating a lot of greens and a lot of lean meats and proteins and you know good fats, your snack is cashews, it’s not a Snickers bar. There’s nothing, there’s nothing fancy about it. And I go into his office every week or two. And I’ll jump on a scale and I’ll do a skinfold tests and we’ll see if we’re up or down and then we’ll we’ll make an adjustment for the next two weeks. It’s very it’s very systematic, and it was very obvious. It’s just you have to do it. Right. I don’t think there’s any like there’s no tips that anyone’s invented it’s just you know, don’t don’t pound all the pasta you don’t need it. Yeah, honestly like just waking up in the morning and chugging a liter of water was probably a big a big improvement for me. It’s just a kind of I mean water accelerates whatever obviously it’s good for you but I think it sort of fills you up first thing as well so you don’t go to
Trevor Connor 42:34
you know a box of cereal. So there’s all these myths out there that it is unbelievable dedication for pros and it’s a struggle every day and they go out with family and have to avoid the desserts avoid anything that they enjoy. Is that the case for you or do you find that it’s pretty manageable sticking to the the diet that you’re given
Phil Gaiman 42:59
yes and no I mean any I’ve read this this applies to like, I mean this is like an Alcoholics Anonymous thing but any like breaking a habit or creating a habit takes 90 days where typically we’re like psychologically you have to force it and then it’s a sort of part of your life so that nutrition is I work with after rides I he had me do this kale shake and it’s it’s a it’s kale or spinach almond butter beet what else is in there and then apple juice to fill the cracks you know apple juice all the way up so it’s like a big cup of green red sludge and and I hate it and I forced it down and I forced it down and now with an hour to go Am I right on creating that stupid kale shake and it’s just a pattern so it’s like when I when I go out to dinner you know if I go out with my friends back in LA or something they have beers and I might have a glass of red wine and but it’s not like if your friends are ordering pizzas and then making fun of you for getting a salad that they’re not really good friends or that fair enough I don’t I don’t consider it ever like I don’t know that’s that’s never been my problem. I don’t consider it a war and I don’t really know any guys who like don’t have a pizza I’m in I’m in Gerona I’ve been going out to dinner every night with with Mike woods and kill Ryan and Andrew talansky and got a big lamb shake the other day and we got the yes
44:32
it’s normal your normal
Trevor Connor 44:34
talking about the the ride getting to the end of the ride. Phil was telling us about the the shake the recovery shake that you are having him do so you can tell us a little bit. The good read. And particularly that check.
44:47
The recovery drink is actually a pre and post drink. So then you think okay, well what else can I use? Like? How can I create something that’ll that’ll give me a better edge nutritionally So use metabolic sugars. So D ribose, l glutamine. You mix these in a base of sugar for transport, like maybe some unfilled red apple juice. So you might take six ounces of unfiltered apple juice, a tablespoon of D ribose, a tablespoon of L glutamine, one eighth of a teaspoon of cinnamon, we use sports legs in there as well a calcium magnesium mix, we have the six sports legs into this little cocktail. We also use a product called beat elite in there to promote nitric oxide. And in citrulline, malate, and a product called pre race by first endurance and depending on how caffeine sensitive you are, you start to be working with one full scoop of that prerace powder. And then you shake that sucker all up and drink it about 30 minutes before you climb on your bike. Again, make sure you have full digest. And you’re ready to roll if you want a bit more punch to that you can add a tablespoon of molasses to it. But that is one hell of a pre training cocktail. And you’ve got to get a bike after you take that thing about 30 minutes you better be on your bike otherwise you’d be holding a lot of laundry or cleaning baseboards are something we do a lot of energy and then post ride post ride you do the exact same thing but you don’t use the pre race powder. But it’s highly metabolic and promotes huge recover it’s it stuffs a ton of sugar back into your system post ride and and then pre ride it loads you
46:31
I imagine it’s really the kind of it’s the kind of thing you want to use before every single bike ride so that you know your body very much gets used to it. Exactly expect
46:39
Exactly. I’ll never change anything on race day, dude, God, you know, you keep it all the same. And I mean, know your body has an expectation of your nutrient patterns and whatever supplements you’ve decided to take. So don’t change the damn thing, you know, treat, treat every ride as if it’s a race prep ride.
46:58
Said as a native vermonter. I do love that idea, actually. And we used to do that before it was packaged. It’s a it’s a it’s Ted kings little project. Is it not?
47:08
know is that is that who started?
47:10
I know he’s involved. Right? broader. Yeah, I know. He’s involved in that. And there’s some brothers in I think they’re in Vermont, not New Hampshire. But anyway, somewhere up in New England, and they’re getting that thing going. And yeah, I mean, we used to when I was when I was racing mountain bikes in high school. And out of Burlington, Vermont, we used to do that all the time. And turns out we were about a decade and a half ahead of the game. 20 years ahead of the game.
47:32
No, I mean, I remember cycling through Europe, I used to use in the beginning of when I started my day of cycling, I would use sugar cubes just get glucose in it. Yep. But then I found brown sugar cube and started using that and was even a little bit better. And then wrestling as a wrestler, I would actually use Maple candy, which was really funny, you know. And then I kind of put it all together just recently over the last year or so when untapped, really showed up on the market. But not so much showing up in the market. It was very still very unfamiliar for so many athletes. I started using that. And I thought you know, this is great. I mean, it’s maple syrup. And it has so many benefits as it relates to a lot of electrolytes and minerals, and just the low glycemic index on it. So I started just flipping it to my athletes, and they told me dug it. But it’s certainly a product that needs to be promoted more without a doubt.
48:30
Yeah, I’ve been a huge fan of it, both in terms of flavor, and that seems to work. So I never really understood why but now I know.
48:40
Yeah, that’s great. And you know, so many athletes will start their rides on sugar, caffeine and don’t and they can’t understand why they feel like they’re a little nutritionally behind their pedal stroke as because that caffeine is pushing up
48:54
an amount of sugar that’s more than necessary.
48:59
And then they think it makes the fear a lie like damn, I have all my food but I must miss timed it. And then you know, it promotes dehydration as well that amount of caffeine. So now your your sweat rate elevates, and your central nervous system spikes. So let’s never caffeine in the beginning of the ride, it’s always caffeine at the end of the ride when you need that central nervous system spike and you want to reduce the feeling of pain.
49:27
All right. That’s some awesome stuff. Thank you. We’re gonna get some sort of wrap this up with get some as quick as we can, like sort of weight loss tips and tricks. I know it’s always really hard to to distill this exceptionally complicated information down to like, you know, here’s five things you can do. But is there a way for you to do that for us?
49:50
Yeah, I think hey, Travis, you want to talk about hydration real quick, though. like water consumption. Yeah, because most folks, you know, most folks start off with like, Well, so you got to watch two water bottles on the bike, you know, and everybody puts some type of electrolyte mix in both. I mean, is that what you’ve seen?
Trevor Connor 50:09
Yeah, that’s typically what a what I’ll see riders do some riders are absolutely religious about what drink mix, they’re gonna use other riders will try different thing every race which I usually recommend against because you never know what you’re gonna get. But you see a whole mix, but generally they’re scared of water. And I think there are actually times where water is better Personally,
50:32
I love you, man, you’re great we, we have to get together. So this is my thought on hydration. So the general rule for hydration is this. So if you’re inactive, the rule of thumb on a daily basis is half an ounce of water for every one pound of body weight that you weigh consumed every day. That’s inactive couchpotato person, if you are active, the rule of thumb is one ounce of water for every one pound of body weight consumed every day to manage the temperature pattern. So let’s just talk about like water off the bike for a second and why it’s important. So other than moving nutrients and toxins to your system, water regulates your temperature. So as you drink water, it circulates through you you perspire and sweat. And in turn, your body regulates the temperature as you relate to different environments in your day. So you can operate efficiently within those environments. If your water is low, you cannot regulate temperature pattern. Your body will presume that that’s a certain amount of trauma that it does not want to deal with like a life threatening level. So it says All right, look, this guy’s not consuming enough water to perspire and sweat correctly to regulate temperature, I need to figure out another way to do it. So I will adapt. As your body adapts and finds a new balance of homeostasis that always hoards and collects things. What it will always hoard and collect is the thing that is most calorically dense, which is fat. In this case, that is perfect because it is also in solitary. So now your body will start to hoard fat underneath your skin to act as insulation to regulate your temperature. So if your water intake is low, you will hoard fat. So how about that, let’s put a period on that for a second. So drink water.
Trevor Connor 52:11
Water number one.
52:12
Now number two. Here I am a cyclist or triathlete. And I’ve I’ve loaded up my bottles with an electrolyte replacement mix both my bottles and I stuck them on my bike. Now, I am concerned about my sweat rate, you know, how do I manage a sweat rate pattern so that I efficiently regulate my temperature so that I do not utilize wattage to control my project. So if I’m cycling, and I take my first swig of electrolyte replacement next on the bike before I start sweating, what will happen to those electrolytes what what goes on with us when a cell is already loaded with electrolytes because it hasn’t started sweating yet, and you slam some more at it. And then physiologically, what happens is, your body shuts down its ability to regulate its temperature, like it’s the cells start to shut down because there’s too many electrolytes floating in there and you can’t start to sweat correctly. So it’s always water first to establish your sweat rate. I Trevor, I think you hit on that in the very beginning. You know, water is super important. It’s like water first, establish your sweat rate, start to deplete your electrolytes, your body actually needs them and then you can replenish them.
Trevor Connor 53:27
The other issue you can run into is osmotic pressure. Water always goes where there there’s a higher pressure, which is basically the concentration of electrolytes. So if you hit your gut with a big electrolyte mix, you’re actually going to pull fluid out of your blood into your gut to bring down the concentration. And that’s why people drink these concentrated electrolyte mixes often complain of bloating,
53:51
bloating and gas well from the gas or heat, you’re establishing a higher heat pattern in your gut as your digestive enzymes get ahold of it. So yeah, you’re absolutely correct. So I always tell my athletes water first establish your sweat rate and then start to replenish with electrolytes. And I always they send me you know, which one should I use? There’s so many products out there. And I tell them simpler, simpler is better. Like, you know, I love scratch labs Allen limbs company, I think that’s great bonk breaker, Chris Frank and the gang over there, they’ve just come out with a new product as well, which is a fantastic hydration mix. So I’m all about them. And they’re they are proven in practice and found in the science for years, those two companies so I think they’re great. And I’ve seen athletes receive huge benefits and if you want a bit more of a punch, you can take some sports legs, like maybe another four or five capsules or six capsules, empty them out into your electrolyte mix, so that you buffer lactate a bit better if you’re a high lactate distributor. Like if you can’t manage that lactate and then mpofu sportflex capsules into that liquid electrolyte mix is a big one. But I think that’s the water story. I think it’s just so important to have that quick water conversation. Because so many athletes go out there with two bottles loaded with some dense electrolyte mix, and they can’t figure out why they feel like shit on the bike.
Trevor Connor 55:18
No, that’s key. And you look at where the the leaders in hydration are going to your scratch nutrition, your Osmo nutrition, some of those companies, they’re they’re really bringing down the concentration of what Gatorade was eight 9%. And now scratch and some of the newer products are more like 4%.
55:37
Three and 4%. Yeah, yeah. Because people are realizing they don’t need that much. Right. Right. And I think it is important for an athlete to look up information about sweat rate, there’s a good formula for it. So it’s based on an hour ride time, where yourself before and after determining what your sweat Ray pattern is, I think that’s been helpful information as well. I don’t know the formula off the top of my head, but I know you can Google it. And
Trevor Connor 56:03
I’m sure you can find good calculators online. I haven’t tried myself and I’m sure you can.
56:08
Like I mentioned before, we’d like to sort of provide a couple a couple of quick take homes for listeners and it can be difficult to distill all this stuff. But best you can couple a couple quick things that you know, tomorrow people can turn around and do and immediately maybe feel and ride better.
56:26
Well, I’d say a quick tip number one, don’t under eat like don’t be afraid of calories, and it’s not a count in calories out. For an athlete. Your your primary concern is about functionality and performance. So the reduction of inflammation is super important and tissue repair is super important. And that requires a nice caloric balance. So don’t be afraid of your food number one. Number two, make sure that you hydrate correctly. You know generally speaking off the bike it’s one ounce of water for one pound of body weight consumed every day. Number three stay away from inflammatory foods no yeast, no mold, no gluten, no refined sugars, so no bread breads, muffins, bagels, boy bread sandwich breads. Focus on the one ingredient starches like potatoes, rice, yams, oatmeal, oat flakes, oh puffs, look at your starches, ask them how many ingredients are in you. And if they tell you more than one don’t eat the damn thing. Finally, stay away from the the consumption of phlegm. That’s code for dairy. There’s not an athlete in the world that consumes any dairy because it adversely affects the utilization of oxygen and promotes a generous amount of gas or Qi and then promotes inflammation as it relates to turn this right fat. For instance, if you’re a diabetic or have diabetic tendencies, you wouldn’t be consuming any dairy because it adversely affects triglyceride levels and HB one sees a choose your proteins wisely know what proteins provide the best. The best performance input at what time of day. So poultry, moderately low fat consume it at lunch, it doesn’t do much else other than be a moderately low fat protein. Your fatty fish and steaks should be consumed in the evening steak elevating hematocrit, which is so important because we all talk about our automatic numbers. What’s yours You know, you want to keep that America between 48 and 52% at the 50% mark, you sought a water the UCI as soon as you’re doping. So it’s it’s nice to have that 50% number because you’re consuming fatty fish and red meat at night. And for no other reason than that. And pinhead and and consuming the fish and consuming the fish at night. Increasingly increasing a increase in your fatty acid consumption promotes a deep REM sleep your body releases more growth hormone your burn more fat. Consider using the mash after dinner. If you’ve got a big ride the next day and remember if if using the mash in the morning again with your one egg or to consume two hours before you go train. Because it consume it any closer you’ll have digested on the bike, you’ll hunt me down and and you won’t like me much.
59:05
Awesome. That’s brilliant. That was brilliant. Thank you so much. Big thanks to Dr. Phil golia for joining us from Crete today. Lots of very useful tips and tricks and some things I feel like I can implement really quite quickly here in terms of getting down to race weight ball safely. That is it for Fast Talk today. We’d love your feedback. Email us at Webb letters at competitive group comm subscribe to fast doc on iTunes, Stitcher or Google Play. And while you’re there leave us a rating and a comment. We really do like those Fast Talkers produced by velonews, which is owned by competitive group. The thoughts and opinions on this podcast are those of the individual. That’s it Professor doc. Thanks for listening, and we’ll see you next time.
