Training at the height of the season can and probably should hurt. With a target race just a few weeks away, that extra VO2max effort or digging just a little deeper is what might make the difference on the final climb of a race. It can hurt, but one thing that’s rarely lacking is motivation—that drive to do the planned workout, to eat a little better, to get enough sleep, and to make the sacrifices needed to be ready on race day.
But in the middle of December, when your next race is months away, your body is out of shape from the off season, and holiday foods are staring you in the face—it’s a little different. That is when skipping a planned workout or backing down because the intervals start hurting seems a lot more appealing. Finding your motivation in the early season is tough. Physically, you’re probably the freshest you’ve been all year, but mentally you are in a very different space.
Here to share their secrets to staying motivated are pro cyclists Madigan (Maddie) Munro and Noah Granigan. Noah has competed for years in Europe and now races the North American scene with Denver Disruptors. Maddie is a pro mountain biker for Trek Factory Racing and a multiple-time national champion. They talk with Coaches Rob Pickels and Grant Holicky about how the early season is all about the mental side, how they deal with the holidays, why it’s okay to feel slow and out of shape, and why it’s important to have some time when we are not riding the razor’s edge.
Joining our main guests, we also hear from coach Robbie Ventura, founder of the Velocity training platform, who will talk with us about how he keeps his athletes motivated.
So, find that little extra motivation to get off the couch, and let’s make you fast!
Episode Transcript
Trevor Connor 00:05
Hello and welcome to Fast Talk: your source for the science of endurance performance. I’m Trevor Connor, but I’m not actually on today’s episode. Your hosts are Rob Pickels and Grant Holicky, but they’re off enjoying some Thanksgiving turkey so it landed on the Canadian to introduce the show. Training at the height of the season can and probably should hurt,. With a target race just a few weeks away, that extra vO2 max effort or digging just a little deeper is what might make the difference on that final climb. It can hurt, but one thing that’s rarely lacking is motivation: motivation to do the planned workout, to eat a little better, to get sleep and make the sacrifices need to be ready on race day, but middle of December, when your next race is months away, your body is out of shape from the off season and holiday foods are staring you in the face – it’s a little different. That’s when skipping a planned workout or backing down when the intervals start hurting seems a lot more appealing. Finding your motivation the early season is tough. Physically, you’re probably the freshest you’ve been all year, but mentally, you’re in a very different space. Here to talk with our hosts today about how they stay motivated are pro-cyclists Noah Granigan and Maddie Monroe. Noah has raced for years in Europe and now races the North American scene with Denver Disruptors. Maddie Monroe is a pro mountain biker for Trek Factory Racing and multiple time national champion. They’ll talk with their hosts about how the early season is all about the mental side, how they deal with the holidays, why it’s okay to feel slow and out of shape, and why it’s important to have a time when you’re not riding the razor’s edge. Joining our main guests, we’ll also hear from Coach Robbie Ventura, founder of the velocity training platform, who will talk with our hosts about how he keeps his athletes motivated. So find a little extra motivation to get off the couch and let’s make you fast.
Grant Holicky 01:43
Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Fast Talk. How do you like that, Rob?
Rob Pickels 01:48
I love that, Gant, yeah, you just – I love when you dive in. You don’t
Grant Holicky 01:52
You don’t really – I don’t have quite the radio voice you have. Let me hear it.
Rob Pickels 01:56
Hello. Welcome to another episode. I can’t even –
Grant Holicky 01:59
You’re nervous.
Rob Pickels 02:00
All right, fine.
Grant Holicky 02:01
All right, well, we’re doing an episode this week on off-season motivation. Do you have it? Do you not have it? What helps fuel it? How do you get it? What do you do? I think the off season for a lot of us is one of those times that is ripe with over-thought, you know, overthinking, over planning, over worry –
Rob Pickels 02:20
Over training?
Grant Holicky 02:21
Over training, even for some people, under training for others. But it’s just one of those, it’s that period of time that gets very unstructured. Even our coaches say, “oh, go, be unstructured”. And it’s really hard to know what that really means. We have in the studio with us today, Noah Granigan. Noah rides for Miami Blazers, and Maddie Monroe, Maddie rides for Trek Factory Racing, mountain biker.
Rob Pickels 02:44
Yeah, she doesn’t do cyclocross anymore. I just want to point that out to everybody listening.
Grant Holicky 02:47
I’m angling to get her back on a cross bike.
Madigan Munro 02:50
We hope to be back soon.
Grant Holicky 02:51
We hope to be back soon –
Rob Pickels 02:53
And better than ever.
Madigan Munro 02:54
Yes.
Grant Holicky 02:54
So we got a roadie, we’ve got mountain biker, and we’ve got two old guys.
Rob Pickels 02:59
We’ve got washed up, just having fun.
Training and Diet in the Off-Season with Maddie and Noah
Grant Holicky 03:02
Washed up, never was. So I want you guys to kind of introduce yourselves as we go along – just people are going to get to know you as we go, but Noah, start with you, what’s your off season look like? What do you do? Is there a big break? Is there a short break? Kind of, what’s the plan?
Noah Granigan 03:16
Usually, I kind of finish my season in mid-September, and then just take advantage of, like, that’s the best weather of the year, and just keep training through that with a good amount of structure – Grant here coaches me, so – just kind of like, jump into cross with a lot of his cross athletes, I don’t race, but just doing that. Just kind of follow – almost like, follow their structure for their training, just for like, that bit where I’m going between my season and when I take a break – and then I usually take a break, kind of as the weather starts to turn, like, two, three weeks, just completely off, yeah, then back on it. And then kind of just, I plan for the Thanksgiving, Christmas, nothing ever happens no matter what’s in training peaks. I definitely take that into account and try to build that like, you know, I want to be pretty tired, like, training-wise, going into those just because I know there’s gonna be a dip so I’ve learned over the years to just plan for nothing happening there.
Rob Pickels 04:11
Noah, that’s describing a lot of the physical stuff that’s happening, what’s happening kind of in your mind at the beginning, when you’re beginning to take this time off – not even time off, right, because you’re still training through but do you have a mindset switch, kind of at the end of your race season?
Noah Granigan 04:24
When the season ends, kind of like that period where I’m just taking advantage of the weather, just because it doesn’t make sense to take a break then. And there’s definitely some like, “Why am I doing this?”, like –
Grant Holicky 04:35
“Why am I here?”
Noah Granigan 04:36
I don’t know why I’m doing, you know, vO2 stuff in late September when I’m about to take a break and my first race isn’t until April. Like, is this gonna help me for any of those events? Like, what’s the point? So I definitely struggle with that. But, I mean, I just kind of say, “All right, you know, we’re doing it just because we’re gonna stay fit as long as we can, just so we can take the break a bit later.”
Rob Pickels 04:58
Follow the beeping plan?
Noah Granigan 04:59
Yeah.
Grant Holicky 05:03
Maddie, what about you? When’s your off-season start? What’s it look like?
Madigan Munro 05:06
Yeah, so since I’ve stopped doing cross the past two years, sadly, I’ve focused more on mountain biking, and our season goes until about October, so it’s pretty late now, which means for me, it’s actually – I’ve found that the past couple years we’ve had that, I’ve been actually pretty tired at the end of the season – so I’ve always taken, like, at least two or three weeks completely off the bike and very minimal activity, like the first couple weeks as well. And I think mentally, I’m usually pretty tired by the end of the season, like I’ve always felt really motivated, but then I can definitely tell my body’s ready for a break. So while it’s hard to take a break, sometimes I think it’s very needed. And yeah, my coach is always, always good about recognizing that too.
Rob Pickels 05:48
Her coach is not Grant Holicky for everybody listening.
Grant Holicky 05:51
No, no, I do not coach Maddie. Sadly for me, yeah, and positively for Maddie. I think one of the other questions I had for you guys is, like, does other stuff change? Do you change your diet? Do you change your sleeping patterns? Is this a chance where you’re like, “I’m gonna go out with my friends?” Do you jump on those things, or is it pretty much kind of status quo?
Rob Pickels 06:13
Life goes on, just maybe not training as much.
Noah Granigan 06:15
My sleep has been incredible. Absolutely nailing it. I need to go back – because I have the data to see if this is like a normal off season thing – that’s something I’ve really, like, nailed in and think like, “wow, this would be really good to do while I’m training, this would be pretty good”, but diet stuff doesn’t change for me. But yeah, the sleep is something I like –
Grant Holicky 06:40
Are you sleeping later, going to bed earlier? What are you doing?
Noah Granigan 06:42
I am going –
Grant Holicky 06:43
Napping every day?
Noah Granigan 06:44
Well, I’ve started – like, Lauren’s up early in the morning, so I’m just getting up with her, and she’s been good about it, so I’m just like, “All right, we’re going to bed super early”. No, I’m not napping. I’m just like –
Grant Holicky 06:56
I was wondering if you were just taking the three hour ride time and just napping during it?
Noah Granigan 07:02
All those red and orange training peaks rise that you’re seeing is just because I was napping.
Grant Holicky 07:07
I love it. That’s fantastic.
Rob Pickels 07:08
Noah, what’s life like outside of training for you? I feel like I need to know you deeper than I do, but have you been a student recently? What’s life like when you’re not racing bikes?
Noah Granigan 07:18
I graduated 2019 –
Rob Pickels 07:20
Okay.
Noah Granigan 07:21
From CU – so yeah, a while ago – and yeah, this off season, just kind of coaching quite a bit, the Boulder Junior team, helping a buddy out, wrenching, building bikes and stuff and yeah, I’ve got some personal clients of my own, and doing some of that. Got a puppy so that’s time-consuming..
Grant Holicky 07:36
I mean, it’s basically a job. You filled the time well, yeah, yeah. What about you, Maddie, what changes?
Madigan Munro 07:45
For me, I think actually, my sleep gets worse in the off season. I’d say during the season, I’m really good about, like, 10+ hours a night, like, if I can, because I really like my sleep, and I think it actually really does help my recovery and stuff. And then I think in the off season, I’m kind of just in that mindset of, like, you know, if I’m gonna go out or if I’m gonna just stay up later, like watching a movie or something like all of that, I’m just not worried about training, so I definitely don’t care as much about my sleep. I’d say diet definitely doesn’t change that much, either, maybe less focused on, like, making sure I get enough carbs and the right amounts for racing and stuff. I think it’s more just, like, if I want to go out and have a nice meal, or, like, have an ice cream, like any of that – I mean, I do that in this season too, but it’s less concerning in the off-season like to just do it whenever.
Rob Pickels 08:35
Do you think, Maddie, in general, when you’re, like, deep in training and racing mode, are you making decisions that are really around performance, like, when you’re going to bed, when you’re eating, maybe activities that you’re doing during the day, like, “I probably shouldn’t go for that hike because I got a workout”. Is – does that sort of describe your training life?
Madigan Munro 08:52
Definitely, yeah. I’d say, especially if I’m in a really big training block, like for a really important race, I think those maybe smaller sacrifices – like, yeah, if my friends are going for a big hike or something, and I know it’s maybe not the best idea during the season, I’d probably say no, unfortunately – but I think in the off-season, it’s a great time to be like, “well, if I want to hike in the morning and then go for a run another day”, or, like, “yoga in the afternoon”, like, all of that is totally fine. So I’d say yeah, during the season, it’s definitely more based around training.
Grant Holicky 09:20
How many days of the year do you spend on the road?
Madigan Munro 09:22
Quite a lot. I’d say, like, at least six months, probably?
Grant Holicky 09:26
So when you’re off-season, you’re home in Boulder, yeah, which is part of it, too, right?
Madigan Munro 09:31
This is actually the first year I’ve been home, because I graduated in May, so I was at school, but that was in Grand Junction, so not that far –
Rob Pickels 09:38
You know, the Boulder of western Colorado?
Madigan Munro 09:40
Yeah, exactly…basically the same as the Boulder Bubble, but different.
Rob Pickels 09:52
Yeah, same, same, but different.
Grant Holicky 09:53
Totally different. And you’re traveling 10 to 20 weekends a year?
Noah Granigan 10:00
Yeah, yeah, I’d say something like that.
Rob Pickels 10:01
Maddie is not better than you that she spends more time on the road, no, just so you know,
Noah Granigan 10:05
She’s better than me for many other… distinction here.
Grant Holicky 10:09
Well, I think her travel’s more interesting than I don’t know, St. Louis,
Noah Granigan 10:13
Yeah, probably.
Madigan Munro 10:15
But you don’t have to spend as much time on an airplane, which is maybe nice.
Noah Granigan 10:19
Well, yeah, sort of, I’m like, in and out of surgical, yeah.
Rob Pickels 10:25
He’s like, the SWAT team that comes in…yeah.
Grant Holicky 10:28
But you’re – I mean, your off season, you have weekends finally. That’s got to be a big deal.
Noah Granigan 10:32
Yeah, that’s pretty nice. Yeah, that’s pretty nice.
Grant Holicky 10:35
Okay, so what’s your off season look like? Do you take one anymore? Because I don’t really take one anymore.
Rob Pickels 10:40
I, you know, I was actually talking to an athlete about this. He was like, “should I take an off-season?” And I was like, “I don’t think that you need an off-season from training, but I think that you need an off season from the mental stress of trying to get it all in”. And that’s the off season for me. I keep riding workouts for myself, I keep training, but I don’t stress about being perfect with everything. If that ride has to go from two hours to one hour because I don’t have time, so be it. It’s not a big deal where previously, I probably would have shortened that ride up because I didn’t have time to do two hours, but I would have really stressed about it, and I would have felt bad about it, and I would have tried to make up for it, or whatever else – so my off-season is my time to just step back from focusing on other things, other than training, not focusing on perfection, doing everything to a tee. What about you? Well,
Grant Holicky 11:31
Well, I travel a lot for cross right? So I’ll finish cross nationals, which is my big race – I mean, I don’t even know if I can call it that anymore – but then I go on the road and I’m in Europe for cross-through worlds, which is kind of February 2nd, but I’ll still ride when I’m out there. I run when I’m out there. For me, training is as much sanity as it is prep for competition anymore. I mean, I can’t say that there’s that many races that I go to the start line and I’m, like, really focused, like, “I’m gonna really try to perform here” – I don’t really get that that much anymore. I wish I did – I think I almost need to find the event that does that for me again, and it can’t be crossed because I’m just too busy. There’s too many things going on in my mind, like, how do I get Maddie back on a cross bike? That’s usually the thing I’m thinking about on the start line. How do I get Noah to actually race a cross bike? But those – yeah, so for me training throughout the year is, this is what I do. It keeps me sane. It’s part of my rhythm. I really like that. And I fall into that with a lot, with my athletes, even Noah and pro athletes. That’s part of why, like – if we took him off the bike in September, you’re done in September, a lot of times. If we took him off bike in September, how do you then ask somebody to just be ripping through October for the next year, that’s hard.
Rob Pickels 12:45
Can’t do it.
Grant Holicky 12:46
And so trying to find that balance is really hard. And for masters athletes, like Noah was alluding to with the holidays, we just kind of train up to the holidays and then, “all right, yeah, go do whatever”.
Rob Pickels 12:56
And this is a conversation that I have with all of my athletes, is, “what do the holidays mean to you and what do you like doing during them?” Essentially, for me, now through the end of December, my mind isn’t – it’s elsewhere. I want to spend time with my family – we travel a lot at this point – it’s not a time that I’m ever going to be able to be perfect with training, which is why I give myself the license to not be perfect. And some of my athletes are like that as well, and others are like, “No, the holidays are actually the best time for me to get in training ” and so for them, we don’t plan a holiday off-season. We plan an off-season that’s different, and I allow them to train through. I think that as long as you know what’s going to work for the person, they can be amazing come March and April, when race season is starting – regardless of what you’re doing before, as long as you know far enough out so that you’re doing it correctly. One other thing though, Grant, I want to bring up that plays into this for me personally, is, I don’t race a traditional season anymore.
Grant Holicky 13:54
Right, right.
Rob Pickels 13:55
I’m very much an event-based rider at this point – you know, a lot of people know I was training up for Trans-Portugal last year. For me, it’s more of these big one-off sort of things that I’m training for, and a lot of my training goes around what’s personally happening with health things with me at the time so I don’t know that I’m the best person, but at the same time, maybe I am representative of a lot of people that are listening out there.
Grant Holicky 14:17
Yeah, and you guys, so when’s your first race, generally?
Madigan Munro 14:21
Our first World Cups are in April, but when we start, probably in March.
Grant Holicky 14:25
You’ll race something domestically in March, and your first races are March, April, kind of thing?
Noah Granigan 14:29
Yeah, kind of, first big one’s kind of start in April.
Grant Holicky 14:33
So we’re looking at kind of a chunk, I mean, you – even in the new year, you have three months to be ready to race. Which – it’s funny because depending on who you talk to, people go “three months,that’s it?”
Rob Pickels 14:45
Exactly.
Grant Holicky 14:46
And I’m sitting there like “three months, that’s a ton of time, we got a lot of time.”
Noah Granigan 14:49
Exactly.
Grant Holicky 14:50
So what are the holidays look like for you guys – you stay in Boulder, so that’s a little bit easier, right?
Madigan Munro 14:55
Yeah, I’ll stay here. And I’m pretty fortunate, like, my family’s super into cycling, too – I mean, my sister’s racing cross, and my dad’s a big cyclist, so like for us, yeah, family activities are often riding bikes and training so it’s a perfect time for us to go out and ride together – so as long as the weather’s good in Boulder.
Grant Holicky 15:12
Yeah, which usually it is, and then you travel?
Noah Granigan 15:14
Yeah, my family’s in New Jersey, so a lot of the times I’m on the road, and when I get home I’m, you know, using an old bike that’s still there from when I was U-23 – like, that’s just, like, my New Jersey bike and when I’m home, I’m hanging out with friends from there, and we’re running around seeing family. So just kind of, you know, you go in with a plan, and then, “yeah, wasn’t able to train for the past three days, huh, look at that”.
Grant Holicky 15:36
Yeah, that was an adjustment. The first year we worked together, like, Noah’s like, “I’m gonna go home and do this, I’m gonna do this, and I’m gonna do this”. “All right, sweet.” And we get back and he’s like, “Yeah, I trained three hours”. Yeah, so now we plan for it.
Noah Granigan 15:48
No, but it’s nice I can, like, ride with my family sometimes, which is not training all the time, just I’m, like, taking advantage of, like, the week I have at home just to go on a bike ride with my mom on the beach or something like that, so, yeah.
Motivation in the Off-Season
Grant Holicky 16:01
Well, cycling is a big part of your family, too, yeah so that’s a nice way to connect. So off-season, kind of the transition here then, is the nitty gritty part of this, which I think, to me, is the interesting part is, how motivated are you actually during your off seasons? Is it hard? Is it easy? You know, the mental we talked about, the mental battle. Does the mental change at all? But for some people, the off season is incredibly hard. I have some athletes that it’s pulling teeth to get them to do work before the panic sets in – whenever the panic is, you know, for people starting to race in March, the panic for a lot of them is the end of January. “Oh god, I haven’t done enough”. How does that feel? And how do you keep some of that motivation in the off-season?
Noah Granigan 16:46
I’ve kind of learned to ride the wave of when, like, the motivation comes throughout the off-season, like it’s not just gonna be – it’s gonna be up and it’s gonna be down. Like sometimes it’ll be like, a snow week, and sometimes I’ll just be super jeed up, and I’m like, “All right, I’m on the trainer this whole week, and I’m gonna smash it”. And other times it’ll be, like, a week of beautiful weather, and I’m just like, “ah, there’s a lot going on”. So, like, sometimes it makes no sense –
Rob Pickels 17:13
Noah’s like a make hay – you know, like, when he’s on it, he’s on it, you gotta go with it.
Noah Granigan 17:19
And then I think where I really thrive is when, like, I get through the holidays and I’m like, when I’m like, not doing well with training and getting ready, and I start to get that like, “Oh man, I really need to get going” and then I get back into it, and I have that feeling like “I’m behind the eight ball”, like I feel like that’s when I do my best work in like, the “Oh shit, I’ve gotta, like, I’m playing catch up, and I’ve got to make it good, because I did nothing between Christmas and New Year’s or whenever.”
Rob Pickels 17:52
Were you like a procrastinator, like in school? Like you got a project, it’s due in three months, you don’t do anything for the first three months.
Noah Granigan 18:01
Yeah, I guess, to an extent, I was. Exams, I’d be like, “okay, the entire day before” –
Rob Pickels 18:08
Yeah.
Noah Granigan 18:09
“I’m not doing anything else, but like studying for that”, it would just be like, very –
Rob Pickels 18:13
You take all that little motivation you could have had each day and you cram it into one 24 hour block of very high motivation.
Grant Holicky 18:21
For the record, that’s not how he trains though. “I’ve done anything in three months, I’m doing a 24 hour day”. So for you, it gets easier when there’s the sense of urgency?
Noah Granigan 18:32
Yeah, when I’ve got that like, “all right, I need to get (bleeped) my together because, you know, it’s now January 2, and now the the training peaks count down to, you know, the first race of the year”. It’s like, “yeah, we’re under 15 weeks or we’re under however many” – it’s like, “All right, now it’s time to quit messing around and actually kind of get this work done”. Maddie,
Rob Pickels 18:54
Maddie, what about you? And if you could tie it to your study habits, I think –
Madigan Munro 18:59
Well, I’m definitely a little bit of A-type perfectionist so I think actually, my – pretty annoyed with me, actually, because I’m the person that’s like, two weeks into off season, and I’m like, texting her, “Okay, can I start training again, like, I’m ready to go, like, when can I ride my bike?” “And she’s like, Maddie, you need to take a break. Like, that’s what resting is for.” And then I’m finally allowed to ride again, and she gives me, like, two hours, and I’m like, “Yeah, but is it okay if I ride for three or more, if I feel good?” and she’s like, “Nope, we need to stick to the plan”. So I’d say, actually, for me, I’m pretty motivated when I come back usually, and I think it comes and goes – like, maybe, if it’s not great weather, like, the riding is just not super great in end of December, it can be tricky – but then for me, what really helps is just finding people to ride with, like groups of people, and even like, small training camps and stuff, that keeps me super motivated, because I just love training with other people.
Grant Holicky 19:52
So, do you – when you come back to it and you’re wanting to do more, is that born of just “I really like to be out on my bike”, or are you already thinking about the season, and “I gotta get the training done, I gotta get going.”
Madigan Munro 20:04
I think it’s a little bit of both. I think, like, I love riding my bike and it’s super enjoyable, and I have missed it a lot in the off-season but I think – also, there’s a part of me that’s like, yeah, I’m really excited for race season again, like, I already miss racing and I want to be super fit – and I think for me, especially this year, like I’m going into elite after four years in U-23 so I think there’s a little bit more pressure to be fit and ready to go when the season starts, so, yeah.
Grant Holicky 20:31
What’s changed for you? Has it changed for you, Noah, in the last few years, like motivation wise?Because you’ve gone from wildlife, where you were racing in Europe, and you were doing pretty big races pretty early, and now racing mostly crits in the States, and your racing starts a little bit later. I mean, three years ago, four years ago, you were doing – what was it, like in December? Didn’t you have a stage race in December or November?
Noah Granigan 20:54
In 2021 we had, like, a 10 day stage race in early December – which, yeah, come started the season in February, like, we were all pretty flying, like, that was the training, basically, it was pretty nice to just get that many race days, like in the heat, in December. So that was, that was pretty awesome. But I don’t know that, I don’t know that my motivation has changed just based off the racing. Like, the timeline changes depending on when the season starts. You know, I think before, it’s always just like, you know, you’re on a four hour ride and it’s cold because it’s Colorado and it’s December, and you’re just kind of thinking of, all right, that first race day of the year. And, like, whether, a few years ago it was, you know, some race I didn’t even know the name of, but I just knew we had, like, a UCI race in somewhere in Turkey, basically or if it’s just thinking about Redlands stage one, it’s just like – I feel like that first, that first race day, is kind of just like the “All right, how am I gonna win this?” And you know, when it’s a race you’ve done before – not some UCI race that you’re trying to kind of imagine how it’s gonna play out – I think it’s easier to kind of have that as like, almost like the North Star, just like, all right, race day number one, you’ve got the training peaks countdown to it. You’ve got, you know, that’s where your mind – that’s where my mind always seems to go to when I’m miserable and cold, and need to make this little box turn green for Grant to be happy at me. I’m happy at you, no matter what. I mean, is that a motivational factor right there? The last thing that you said, “make this little box turn green for Grant to be happy”. Yeah. I think-
Rob Pickels 22:30
Does that keep you doing things?
Noah Granigan 22:31
I think it’s losing its power throughout the years, though. I think, as you – like if you get like a new coach, it’s always just like, “all right, you know, I need to be on, I need to show that I’m doing everything I can”. And then, you know, just as you build a relationship and kind of understand each other better, there’s definitely less, like pressure to get the exact thing in that Grant prescribed me. It’s kind of just like, “Oh yeah, you know, I didn’t get that done today. I’ll try to squeeze it in tomorrow”. And it’s kind of just like a general like, “yeah, that kind of s— happens”, where you need to just go about it completely differently than you had planned, you know, the week before. I think we also know each other better from both sides now too. So I’m not sitting there with Noah in November really expecting him to hit all the marks –
Grant Holicky 22:36
Yeah.
Rob Pickels 23:18
Right.
Grant Holicky 23:18
Right? So I might be riding something that feels a little bit more lower hanging fruit, “yeah, I know he can get this done”, or “this is something he likes, so I’m gonna get that in”, because that’ll almost goad him into getting that training done. I think that’s why it’s so important to know your athlete through that off-season piece, too. Like, if they’re one of those people that really struggles, you got to get a little creative and find some other alternative things to do to get them going –
Rob Pickels 23:44
Right.
Grant Holicky 23:44
And if they are type A – self-described type A, that’s nice that she came out with that, right, we didn’t have to say it – that you are in this mindset of, “I gotta hold them back, like I gotta actively think about this, because we don’t need too much too early”.
Rob Pickels 24:01
And I think as a coach, it’s important that we can help our athletes find success. I know that if I have athletes that are maybe a little bit less motivated, I’ll down regulate a little bit on what’s on their calendar, because if you’re putting on just this crazy stuff that you know they’re not going to accomplish, they won’t accomplish it, and they won’t accomplish it tomorrow or the day after, and then they’re going to start feeling a little bit down and, “oh, man, maybe I shouldn’t be doing this, I can’t do this”. And it’s okay, as a coach, to recognize and say, “Hey, maybe on paper, this is perfect training over here, but we’re not going to make that right now so let’s do this other – make sure the person has success that helps them find motivation, and then you can turn it up a notch”. But Maddie, I’m interested for you, does your coach play into your motivation? Turning the box green, making you know, how does that work?
Madigan Munro 24:48
Definitely, I think I’d kind of echo what Noah said. I think, like at the beginning, it was very much like, yeah – not that I had something to prove – but almost that I wanted to show her like that I was gonna work hard, and this was gonna be a good relationship for us. And I think as we’ve worked together, and like, I’ve grown as an athlete, I’ve kind of understood, too, that she’s not looking for perfection, and that’s not why she’s coaching me. And also, you only have so many mental matches throughout the year too, that it’s important not to be putting so much energy into like, “every workout in December has to be perfect” when I know my last big race is in October – like that’s a long time to be fired up and ready to go. So it’s – I think I’ve learned from my coach, too, how important it is to also not be perfect all the time and recognize that.
Rob Pickels 25:34
What tends to slip, like your weekly hours kind of slip down? Do you not do your core work, where – when, you know, you’re less motivated, what doesn’t get done?
Madigan Munro 25:45
I think it’s not so much that doesn’t get done, I just think the quality of what I’m doing isn’t as good. I think I’m probably pretty good at pushing through things, but then we kind of can see, like, in the numbers, or just like, how I’m feeling on the bike, that it’s not as good anymore and that’s kind of a sign of like, yeah, you’re definitely tired or not as motivated right now.
Grant Holicky 26:04
I think that the mental matches thing is a great statement, right? I don’t think most people recognize – you know, we talked about it on this show a lot, right, I think somebody can stay on the physical razor’s edge of fitness for a long time. You can race recover for a long time and be on it. But what starts to really fade is the brain, because you’ve got to go through these logistics of, week in and week out, how do I get myself completely ready? Like, I know my routine, so how do I get myself totally ready? I think that’s some of it for you, Noah, is like, just like, crank in here – you’ve said this to me, “why am I cranking here in December, like, I’m all in in December, and the first race I’m going to do is April, and the first race I’m going to do is a crit”. Like that gets hard, and I think coaches and athletes, and especially athletes, kind of miss the boat on that a little bit, like we’re leaning in really hard in the places that we might not get a whole lot of out of leaning in. If I lean in really hard before the holidays in December, what am I really going to get out of that after December? So I think, like just keeping moving becomes super important. When we moved cross nationals, we moved cross nationals, mostly for the Masters athletes –
Rob Pickels 27:18
From January to December.
Grant Holicky 27:19
January to December.
Rob Pickels 27:21
Not location, but literally, it’s a month earlier on the calendar.
Grant Holicky 27:24
And it’s different than the rest of the world, the rest of the world does their cross nationals – most of the rest of the world does their cross nationals in January –
Rob Pickels 27:30
Remember that year we had two cross nationals in the same year?
Grant Holicky 27:33
2018, we had two in the same calendar year. But the biggest complaint for the Masters athletes was, how do I train through Christmas to be ready in the middle of January? And I remember sitting there going, “why are you training through Christmas?” And people were looking at me like I had two heads, and – it’s a 45 minute standalone cross race. How much do you really need to do? Like, hit the trainer a couple times, you’re gonna be fine. So it’s really – where do you burn those matches? Where do you go all in?
Noah Granigan 28:02
I burn them when I get a big snowstorm and I get jeed up (laughs) and I’m wondering why I’m not training when the weather’s really good.
Grant Holicky 28:13
Right, right? Noah gets like – he’s watching last year’s crit on the trainer, just reeling it out…
Noah Granigan 28:19
Ride the wave. Lean into it when its there.
Grant Holicky 28:21
Yeah, no, I think that’s important. Lean into it when it’s good, and then kind of ease off when it’s not so good.
How can coaches motivate athletes?
Trevor Connor 28:28
There’s a lot of ways that coaches can motivate their athletes in the off-season. Let’s hear from Robbie Ventura and how he motivates his athletes.
Robbie Ventura 28:35
To me, motivation really comes down to working out consistently. I think it’s a fallacy to think that we get motivated just because, you know, we start doing things, we start improving, we start growing. That’s what creates motivation. And to me, the off season is about – the motivation comes from an increase in strength, an increase in durability. If we are growing and getting better at something, it’s a lot easier to stay motivated. The other component is to make sure that there’s a human element -there’s an interaction – there’s a group type activity that keeps people motivated. If you’re going down in your basement and doing vO2 intervals and strength training all by yourself every single day, I can understand how that could get old, but I think it’s important once, maybe even twice a week, to work out with other people – both from a strength training perspective as well as an indoor cycling perspective. I think motivation comes from consistency over time, and other people that are showing up helps us become more consistent.
Rob Pickels 29:27
Can I ask you guys if you think about your motivation at the end of the race season – you’ve both said, “Hey, you take a little bit of time off following that race season” – so if we think about your motivation at the end of the race season to your motivation when you come back to training, does that time-off, break period – is your motivation higher when you come back, or is it lower when you come back because you’re used to not training?
Madigan Munro 29:50
I think it’s a little bit of both for me, in the sense that when I get back to training, I’ve been like, super antsy to be back on my bike, so I’m really motivated just to get out and ride again. But then I think that kind of feeling of not being fit, and remembering how nice it was to be fit and how good it felt to be riding my bike right before I took a break, I think sometimes for me, that can be like, “Oh, why am I riding right now? I just feel so unfit”, like “this is so much harder than it was four weeks ago”. So…yeah.
Grant Holicky 30:20
That little mini negative feedback loop is hard, right? Because you took the break on purpose, so you lost fitness on purpose, and then you get back on the bike, and it kind of sucks because you’re not fitand you don’t feel fast, so you’re not really motivated.
Rob Pickels 30:33
And you’re like, “I’m never gonna get back there again” –
Madigan Munro 30:37
“I lost so much.”
Grant Holicky 30:38
And we’ve done this – how many? Well, we’ve done this –
Noah Granigan 30:44
Yeah, I’d say before the break, it’s kind of like a decompress time, like I’m training, but also still kind of usually, like, just timing wise, that’s usually like figuring out what next year looks like for me. So, like, usually I don’t have necessarily, like, everything dialed and I’m like, “All right, this is what I’m training for for next year” so it’s kind of just like, “all right, I’m going hard doing, you know, cross with Grant and the Forever Endurance crew – and it’s just like, “All right, we’re just going hard because it’s fun to go hard, kind of”, and then, yeah, usually next season is ironed out by the time I’m coming back from the break, and I’m starting – not panic training, but I’m like, “All right — and I know exactly what next year is going to be, what the big goals are, and kind of, how to attack that” so it’s kind of like that -before the break, I’m still, it’s still looking more at, like, this past season, I feel like, and then, you know, there’s just, like, a hard “All right, now we’re looking forward” once I’m back on the bike.
Grant Holicky 31:40
Yeah, I remember vividly when I was racing triathlon, and I had a very structured thing – I was a quote, unquote “professional triathlete”. We’d finish Maui Xterra worlds and I’d stop and I’d take a week off and by the end of that week off, I was like, “This is amazing, nothing hurts, nothing’s sore. I feel so good. I get out of bed in the morning, it’s awesome”. And by the end of the second week, I feel fat, I feel out of shape. I feel slow – like, for me, that first week was super easy to lean into the off season or that break, and that second week got really hard, like I would really start to struggle and I really wanted to get back to it. Didn’t necessarily mean I came back to it and was like “all in and was great about it”, but I wanted to get back to something because I started to not feel like myself. And it was always interesting to me that that split came so fast, because I went from going, “Oh, I feel like a better version of myself” to “Oh, I feel like the worst version of myself” – because I’ve been an athlete since, I’ve had structure season wise, since I was eight, when I was swimming, and you know, you’d have these structured off seasons as a swimmer. And so I’ve been doing this for so long, it’s weird to get into a point now, in the last probably five or six years, where I don’t have that structured off season. Off seasons work, right? Like I’m – I’m in Belgium, and I’m trying to keep up with some of these guys riding cross courses that are like, death on a stick – like I’m trying not to die at 51 and end up in a Belgian hospital. And that’s bizarre, because now I’m slightly out of shape, and I’m trying to keep up with those guys.
Rob Pickels 33:21
Nuts, man. I remember those days of just like, being at my limit, preriding a course with like, an 18 year old, like, “Screw you, how are you so fast? Like, I’m literally at vO2 max, and you’re throwing tail whips off a roller”. Like, I don’t understand what’s going on.
Grant Holicky 33:36
I knew they’d do that at vO2 max, too, but…but, no – I don’t know if this is the time and the place, but I’ll tell this story: I was pre-riding Holst with an athlete a few years back – and Holst is one of those races that’s worth looking at, there’s a downhill that is absolutely the steepest thing you’ve ever seen, it doesn’t – Maddie’s shaking her head with wide eyes, it doesn’t do justice on TV – and at the bottom of the hill is a moat. And now they put up a fence – they used to not have a fence – but last year, in pre ride, a woman went over the fence into the moat. I was going down this thing and got about halfway down and just lost it. Yard sale wipe out, like sliding down this hill with an athlete from the United States laughing in front of me because they heard me go down and Fem Van Empel behind me, probably b—-ing and complaining –
Rob Pickels 34:27
That you don’t kill her.
Grant Holicky 34:30
But, I mean, so much of that is even the mental piece of being in the off season. If I’m in the season that kind of a downhill, something that I’m a little bit more used to from racing, total off-season, the brain is just shut down and now there’s the little fear component to it that I don’t have the rest of the time. It’s really wild.
Rob Pickels 34:48
Yeah, I think the mental side of it is huge and I think the off season is kind of huge – like, I shouldn’t say this to him, to his face – but I don’t worry about it as much with Noah, because I know that what we’re getting ready for, I know how quickly we can get ready for it. Yeah. You know something you guys were talking about, Grant, you know, you’re like, “Okay, after one week, I feel like a good version of myself and after two weeks” – and you know, when I’m working with athletes, I try to sprinkle this in throughout the season, even during the training season, right, where we have a recovery week that is down enough that they’re so antsy to get back on the bike, because it really feels like you haven’t done or accomplished anything – and that, I find, is really motivating for people, if you have a rest or recovery week that you barely notice, I don’t think that it does enough, both physically and on the mental side of things, where people are like, “I cannot wait to just ride my bike again. Why are you keeping me off my bike?”
Grant Holicky 34:50
Like we’ve been together long enough that I know how quickly he ramps up. I don’t think he knows it. Like he gets antsy, he gets nervous, he gets worried. I’m like, “Ah, we got all kinds of time. I’m not really worried about this”. And so I almost ride it out until that panic training, like that “oh s— moment” that he has comes in and they’re like “sweet, let’s ride it, let’s roll here, now!”
Noah Granigan 36:03
Now, I’m just gonna be like, “Grant said I can ramp up….”
Grant Holicky 36:09
Whatever, dude, you get, antsy way too early – I know that.
Madigan Munro 36:14
Yeah.
Grant Holicky 36:15
I think that’s true, though, it’s like, when you take that break long enough that – I mean, you’re going through it, Maddie, with yours, right?
Madigan Munro 36:22
Like, totally.
Grant Holicky 36:23
Getting to that place of, like, “Okay, I gotta go. I gotta go.”
Madigan Munro 36:27
But I think it’s also – it’s kind of counterintuitive, because I think the sign of a good off-season and a mental break is, like, you come back to training and you’re like, “oh my gosh, this is so hard, I’m so tired, like, why did I lose so much fitness?” And I think that means you did a good job in the off season, like actually giving your mind and your body a proper break.
Rob Pickels 36:48
For me, the motivation thing is interesting, where – oftentimes it feels like we know what we have to do and then we have a natural state of our ability to do that and the further apart those two things are – that’s sort of motivation that fills in that gap, right? And I know, like, for me, it’s funny, in the winter time, I think I just spent a lot of time talking about not being motivated, sort of in the off season time but when I do come back to training, after the holidays, January, as people know – like, March is the snowiest month in Boulder, right? We just get pounded. December isn’t too snowy here, but come March when you are training, we get these big snowstorms, and so I spend a lot of time riding in a detached, uninsulated garage that I have to shovel my way to get to right? I am highly motivated to get on that trainer and get my training in, but there’s all that motivation I’m taking to put into this effort, this into this situation, that sometimes when I make it through my event, it’s like, “Whew, I just poured so much into training for this through the off season, that then I don’t have the motivation in the middle of the summer, when the weather is nice, when things are easier, when I’m not really tuned up and turned on to make things happen”.
Grant Holicky 38:01
Well, I think that’s really important to know the ebb and the flow of your schedule too, right? Where do we put that mid season break in – I think that mid season breaks crucial – like, we go through a high for the roadies, it’s right after nationals, and nationals is fairly early on the road and then we can kind of, “okay, let’s take a moment, decompress.” But I think, Maddie, I think you’re really right, the sign of a good break or an off-season is “Okay, I’m ready to go” and, “oh, I feel like I’ve lost a little something”, because it doesn’t take – I mean, a week off the bike, you’ll lose some of those natural painkillers, you lose some of that feeling. It feels a little awkward. And you haven’t really lost fitness, but you’ve lost feel, and you’ve got to get back to that feel.
Susie Sanchez 38:46
Coaches. This is Susie Sanchez. I’m the director of DEI and Membership programs for USA Cycling. Did you hear that USA Cycling is shaking up our coach education program? In April, we announced that coaches need six CEUs by the end of this year to renew their license. Learn more and get started on great coaching education courses from Fast Talk Labs at learn.usacycling.org.
Off-Season Activities
Grant Holicky 39:09
So, let’s shift a little bit – playing off what Rob’s talking about with the snow – what different activities do you guys do in your off-season? Like, does training come back right to the bike right away and only the bike? Do you do a little more running? Do you use you some skiing? Like, what do you do that’s different?
Madigan Munro 39:25
I definitely do some skiing when I can. I love skiing. So whether it’s like downhill skiing or some backcountry skiing, I’m all for that. Definitely incorporating that in – a little bit of running and hiking, but not too much and then sometime in the gym too, I think is definitely a heavier gym season in the off season. And
Rob Pickels 39:43
And Maddie, correct me if I’m wrong – you were a competitive alpine ski racer prior to being kind of a full time bike racer.
Madigan Munro 39:49
Yeah, I was a downhill ski racer until I was 15, I think, yeah.
Rob Pickels 39:53
Because I remember, you started cross when you were 17…16, in that range? And I remember cross nationals in Louisville, you were with one of our coaches – guy named Michael Robson to those who are familiar, and you know, it’s kind of like Maddie’s first cross nationals and it was really muddy, and Robinson’s like, a very good technical rider and he was like, “okay, Maddie, I’m gonna go down this hill really fast” and you’re like, “Okay, Coach”. And he’s like, “it’s gonna be real fast”, you’re like, “it’ll be fine”. And it was like, “That’s right, she’s, like, used to hurtling down mountain at – like, like, we’re going 20 in the mud. It’s no big deal.”
Madigan Munro 40:26
Yeah, he’s always like, “no brakes, no brakes” and I’m like “okay”.
Grant Holicky 40:30
“This is softer than snow.”
Madigan Munro 40:33
Yeah.
Noah Granigan 40:34
Are other people braking (laughs)?
Grant Holicky 40:38
So what about you? Did you mix things up?
Noah Granigan 40:40
Yeah, I get in the gym, start doing – yeah, body weight stuff, and then work my way into, like, actual weights.
Rob Pickels 40:46
And in the off season, your body weights higher, so it’s a better workout.
Noah Granigan 40:51
Exactly, but yeah, that just naturally dies off once the season starts just because – I don’t know, the way my schedule is, I’m just never in, like, one place for very long so, just the logistics of keeping that up with that schedule, I’m just not very good at. And then, yeah, do some running. Grant tries to get me to run.
Grant Holicky 41:11
He left a great note last week when it snowed, it said, “not a big snow runner” and there’s just nothing…. “good to know, I guess we’re not running in the snow” –
Rob Pickels 41:22
Not a big snow runner…
Noah Granigan 41:23
Well….it’s cold….
Grant Holicky 41:25
I think it actually said “not a big snow running guy” – like, this is just a global statement –
Madigan Munro 41:36
You can’t change it.
Noah Granigan 41:37
I’m from New Jersey, man.
Rob Pickels 41:39
Grant, you’ve been running.
Grant Holicky 41:40
I run, but I run year-round. I run the kids to school, so –
Rob Pickels 41:45
That’s why you were doing doubles the other day – I noticed you had, kind of, two runs in a day.
Grant Holicky 41:49
Dude are you stalking me?
Madigan Munro 41:50
Strava stalker?
Rob Pickels 41:51
Dude, Strava – you are, you’re popular on my Strava feed.
Grant Holicky 41:55
No, I run almost every morning because I have limited time in the afternoon so the run is like this little extra cardiovascular piece, but in the off-season, I run a lot because I tend to be in Belgium, and from Sittard, there’s great running right out the USA Cycling House door and if we’re going to a race or we’re doing this or that, I’m not going to be on the bike, so I’ll just run and get that in. And that’s something I’ve done for years as a coach and between sessions of swim meets, I would get out and go for a 20 minute run because it always made me feel better than a nap.
Rob Pickels 42:25
I’m always motivated to run in Europe. I think I have more running miles in Europe than I do in the US. There’s just something about running around those cities and trails.
Grant Holicky 42:33
Well, it’s cool in Europe, man, there’s like, especially in Belgium and the Netherlands, there’s little trails everywhere, there’s little farm roads everywhere, and you run on them and everybody’s out walking their dog or walking around, it feels – it just feels more normal than it does in the States, I mean, in the states you’re on roads or sidewalks, it just doesn’t work as well.
Noah Granigan 42:52
Also, the Netherlands in January isn’t really the best riding weather.
Madigan Munro 42:58
What do you mean, it’s awesome – so much fun!
Grant Holicky 43:01
Noah’s right, you know, you typically look out the window at eight o’clock in the morning: A) it’s dark. B) it’s cloudy. And you know – Scott Funston, who’s a cross rider for Cervelo/Orange Living in one of the US riders, he always talks about the different types of rain, like, there’s about 50 different types of rain we were going through, last year is like “light mist, mist, Grant, this is torrential mist, man, is this rain?”, and he goes, “No, it’s not rain yet, it’s obviously mist, but it’s torrential mist”. But it’s much easier to just kind of go for a run in that than to get everything on – and when I’m in Europe, the mechanics are taking care of my bike too. They have enough to do, so I don’t want to wreck my bike, so I tend to go for runs.
Rob Pickels 43:45
This weather is an interesting “X” factor, because Noah seems like he’s real motivated when the weather gets bad. I think most people would be the other way around.
Grant Holicky 43:53
Not to run. Not a big snow running guy.
Noah Granigan 44:00
No, they’re definitely, like, snow periods where I’m just like, “Eh, I really got to do…”
Madigan Munro 44:03
Yeah.
Noah Granigan 44:04
But that was just more a comment about sometimes it doesn’t make sense when it hits you, you know, sometimes it’ll snow and I’ll just be, like, “I just want to go skiing this week”, but not as, like, a “this is my training”, just because, “yeah, I’m not really pumped up for a week of training right now, and I’m just gonna go skiing because there’s snow and I don’t want to train as much as I otherwise would”. So yeah, it’s kind of just all over the place.
Opinions on the Trainer
Grant Holicky 44:27
Speaking of the trainer, people have strong opinions of the trainer, so are you guys trainer folk or are you “I will put everything I own on and I’ll find a way to go outside”?
Madigan Munro 44:36
I’ll put everything I own on. I hate riding the trainer. I do not enjoy – I think I just get so bored, but sometimes to a fault, because there are definitely days when the weather’s bad enough that you probably shouldn’t go outside still, like it’s just not safe, but yeah, I’m probably one of those people that would push it.
Noah Granigan 44:54
I’ve transitioned to become a trainer guy.
Rob Pickels 44:56
He’s a trainer guy.
Noah Granigan 44:57
Yeah, big trainer guy – not much of a snow running guy but I’m a big inside guy…
Grant Holicky 45:06
A big trainer guy.
Noah Granigan 45:07
But no, I’ve embraced that and I think – yeah, just the efficiency of it, especially if it’s intervals, just throw it in ERG mode and turn your brain off and pedal and then you get a – it beeps when you’re done and you’re just like, “Oh, perfect. Start thinking again” and then you just, like – all of a sudden, your workouts done, and you did that. So, like, there’s, it’s almost like, you don’t have to force it, because it can just be that simple. And you can, like, get other things done while you’re on there, where, yeah, where you’re, like, bundled up and it’s snowing and you’re trying to, like, stay on the road.
Madigan Munro 45:36
It’s supposed to be really good for you, too, – the trainer makes you stronger.
Noah Granigan 45:40
Maddie’s over here, “I’ve heard, I wouldn’t know”.
Grant Holicky 45:46
There are aspects of the trainer that are really, really good for you. Yeah, I ran out and road last Friday in Boulder when the snow started and shouldn’t have –
Madigan Munro 45:56
Yeah.
Grant Holicky 45:57
You know, it was one of those things where the other guys started at 9, they met me at the house at 10, we’re kind of like, “okay, maybe we can pull this off”. By 10:30, we couldn’t shift anymore because the cogs were frozen, and somebody had a warm bottle of water, so we’re dumping it on the cogs and then doing a sprint and then – it was bad.
Madigan Munro 46:15
Yeah.
Grant Holicky 46:15
But, I will say, when you put the right gear on, you can make it happen.
Rob Pickels 46:19
I’ve had rides where I had to ride down the tire tracks of the car that had gone in front of me because there was so much loose snow – you literally couldn’t, like, ride forward through it but, you know, Maddie, you were previously in Grand Junction – what was the ease or your ability to sort of execute there in the wintertime verse here in Boulder?
Madigan Munro 46:39
I’d say it actually wasn’t too, too different. I think there’s a little bit better weather down there, like it definitely would get rainy and cold some days but we also had access to a really good room with trainers in it on the cycling team at school so it was actually really easy to just jump on the trainer there, too and I was still racing a lot of cross then, so the weather, like, didn’t really affect me, either or the type of training I was doing. I
Grant Holicky 47:03
I mean, you did a lot of riding when you were still in New Jersey – I mean, you’ve been out here for ages, right – but what was the winter training like in Jersey?
Noah Granigan 47:09
Kind of like Netherlands in January (laughs). Yeah, not much snow, not as much fluctuation – like Boulder, it’ll be beautiful, right, you can ride without gloves for two weeks straight and then it’s gonna snow two feet and you’re on the trainer for four days, and then it’s beautiful again – so there’s not those major swings. It’s kind of more just, like, steady, like – yeah, it gets darker and colder, like, still sunny, like, they’re nice days, of course, you know. But I guess it’s more like a gradual drop into winter and then a gradual rise out of winter, rather than, like, this kind of Colorado “who knows what’s coming”.,
Rob Pickels 47:44
Or, like, yesterday in Boulder, it was 60 during the day, and as soon as the sun went down, it was like, instantly 40 –
Grant Holicky 47:50
And watching the snow blow over the mountains, driving our kids – both of us were driving our kids to BJC, yeah, like “Oh….”
Rob Pickels 47:58
Sebastian’s like, “Dad, is it gonna rain at practice today?” and I was like, “I hope not….nobody knows…”
Noah Granigan 48:04
Nobody knows.
Grant Holicky 48:06
Nobody knows. I did have the extra layer in my hand. I went back and said, “Put this on”.
Madigan Munro 48:11
Yeah.
Grant Holicky 48:12
And actually, in the end, he got done, he said he was plenty warm.
Rob Pickels 48:15
For those listening, Grant and I, we both have kids in Boulder Jr. cycling and after the clocks change, they do their entire two hour practice in the dark multiple times a week with, like, headlamps and – you want to talk about motivation, man, these kids are out there just like happy as clams to ride in the cold, in the snow, in the mud, in the dark. It’s incredible. It
Grant Holicky 48:33
It is incredible and every time my son gets in the car, two things: it could have not rained in this town for two months, and his bike is dirty when he puts it on the back of the car, I don’t know how he does it – it’s amazing. And then last week, they went and rode in the snow because we had a good eight inches of wet snow still on the ground and I got a text from one of our friends who was skiing in North Foothills Park that said, “Did your son tell you about the snowball they rolled at practice today?” And I was like, “No”, he said, “Ask him, it was as big as him.” They rolled like a five foot snowball at practice – but I will say that there’s a lot to be said for that. I mean growing up riding and racing your bikes, both of you guys in different places, you get kind of used to crappy weather. I mean, cross does it for you too – and you were an alpine ski racer, so you get kind of tough with that too – I didn’t, you know I grew up, anything that I did in winter was inside. Now I was also upstate New York, so you couldn’t go outside, it was too cold and too snowy. But for me, it took a long time to learn: I can go out in this, I can just suck it up and dress and go out in this.
Rob Pickels 49:48
I think that that’s really interesting, because I went through that same process too, and I had to really learn, I had to learn the clothes, I had to learn it was okay, I had to learn that there were other weirdos out there doing the exact same thing. But, you know, Grant, our kids are growing up with just the normalcy of “this is what you do”, like, “the weather’s fine, you can still go outside and ride your bike.” And I think that a lot of people are losing that at this point with the advent of all the indoor training technology. I know at Pearl iZUMi, our winter apparel sales were plummeting, you know, as trainers sales were going low and I loved making this really super cool, like high tech winter clothing, and we just weren’t selling it anymore. It was, you know, a pain to my heart.
Grant Holicky 50:33
Yeah, it is funny, even – I work a little bit with Gorewear, and knowing the people that run Gorewear in the States, they are struggling to sell – like Gorewear makes this amazing winter stuff, but they’re struggling to sell it here, but in Europe, they saw a ton of it.
Madigan Munro 50:47
Oh yeah.
Grant Holicky 50:48
Because everybody still rides.
Rob Pickels 50:49
Yeah.
Grant Holicky 50:50
Right? It is interesting, I mean, as we said, you guys grew up doing this sport. You’re way ahead of the curve.
Rob Pickels 50:56
Well, in Europe too, I mean, you guys all have experience with this – it’ll be a disgusting day in January in the Netherlands, and there’s still 1000 people bike-commuting.
Madigan Munro 51:04
Yeah.
Rob Pickels 51:05
I remember taking the train to the airport in Munich and I forget what small town we were going through – there was literally 400 bikes parked at the train station and that’s just the normalcy of life in bad weather.
Grant Holicky 51:18
We don’t have that here, do we?
Rob Pickels 51:19
We do not have that here.
Noah Granigan 51:20
Good rides along the shelter still go, no matter what.
Madigan Munro 51:24
Yeah.
Advice for New Riders in the Off-Season
Grant Holicky 51:24
So, let me ask you guys this: looking for strategies for different people in their off-seasons to keep the motivation high, what suggestions would you have, if we were talking about a new rider – so very different than everybody here – but a new rider walking into the sport, coming into maybe their first or second off-season. What advice would we have for that new rider as they go into their off season?
Noah Granigan 51:53
I guess my advice would just be in general, like, it’s not always going to be there. I’m not going to be able to tell you a trick to keep the motivation high for the next four months before your, you know, first race that you’re looking forward to and, I guess just understand that and it’s not going to be a perfect run in like, no one, no one has a perfect run into every race. And so, like, I think once you kind of have an actual, like, understanding, and you’ve kind of, like, really come to terms with that, I think it’s a lot more manageable to, you know, tackle when it comes and goes. So just – I’d say that’s the biggest thing to understand – and then, yeah, when it’s there, lean into it and when it’s not, you know, just be ready for when it comes back and yeah, and hit it again.
Grant Holicky 52:38
When it’s not, make your bad days as good as you can.
Rob Pickels 52:41
And ultimately, you’re sort of talking about perfection standing in the way of progress, right? It’s not going to be perfect. Don’t worry about being perfect. Make progress where you can.
Grant Holicky 52:50
How do you deal with that, Miss Perfectionist?
Rob Pickels 52:53
Self-proclaimed.
Madigan Munro 52:54
Like what Noah said, I think it’s honestly sometimes probably, if you’re forcing that motivation, it’s probably going to go backwards on you and make you less motivated in the long run, like when you need to be – but I think it’s just important to, if you’re the kind of rider that does well with setting goals, I think, reflecting on your season that you just came out of, and also setting a couple goals that you want out of your next season, and then kind of smaller like progressional steps that will help you get there – and I think that can help you have more short term motivation for the off-season, like, “okay, one of my goals of this off-season is to work on this”, or to “get this out of my training”, but it doesn’t have to be some grand thing, like, focused on racing. I think it’s okay if some days you’re like, “you know what, I want to go for a run today instead of riding my bike”. Like, that’s probably totally fine. So, yeah, finding a little bit of balance and not forcing it.
Grant Holicky 53:46
I really like what you just said in terms of creating the plan for the off-season, too – like this is something I don’t think a lot of athletes do – and, Noah, you talked about it a little bit too. Like, “I’m gonna keep training till this point, and then I know when the holidays come, there’s a plan for this, and then I’m going to hit this mark, and then I’m going to hit this mark” – I really think both those points are fantastic, because as we take the break and then we move into that next piece, “what do I know it’s going to feel like”, right? When we get back on the bike and we don’t feel good, are we completely depressed and down on ourselves because we don’t feel good, or are we able to go “I was kind of ready for this, I knew it was going to happen, I’m going to give it two weeks, and after two weeks, I expect to start feeling better”, right, then move through that progression. Goal setting, goal attainment, “teah, we set that goal for way down the road, but unless we’ve established a path to get to that goal, it’s really easy to get lost”.
Madigan Munro 54:45
Definitely.
Grant Holicky 54:45
Rob’s over there smirking at me.
Rob Pickels 54:47
Yeah, you’re not wrong.
Grant Holicky 54:48
So I think that’s a really good off-season point, especially for the newer athlete, is kind of be ready for how this is going to feel and go from there. What advice would you have four neo-pros, people that are a year or two behind your guys’ progression, six, seven years behind yours – a junior athlete that’s starting to break into UCI racing for cross, or for road, or, you know, somebody, a U-23 athlete that’s starting to get into it and saying, “Okay, now I really need to make the move forward”.
Noah Granigan 55:19
So that’s like an area where, like, that’s not the only thing going on in your life, that’s like, a lot of like, “I’m a student, I’m a full time student”, so it’s really just like, you’ve got to learn time management and just being like – come to terms with “All right, I’ve got this 90 minutes that I can, you know, get this work done, and I need to get it done”. Like, yeah, like, that’s – if you’re at like, that point, and a lot of times it’s because you’re, you’re just balancing so much in life, then you could just be exhausted, just because there’s so much going on – like, I found this, like, when I was a student, like, I knew, all right, I only have this two hour window on Tuesdays after, you know, after my last class, and I’d get home from class and just be like, “I’m smoked”, like “I was up late doing homework, and, you know, I’ve got this two hours, and I know I need to, like, get this work done, but yeah, this isn’t happening”.
Madigan Munro 56:09
Yeah.
Rob Pickels 56:10
You can’t do the “I’m just gonna sit on the couch for five minutes”… turns into fifty real fast.
Grant Holicky 56:17
And then it’s over.
Madigan Munro 56:18
Yeah.
Grant Holicky 56:19
I think that’s good.
Madigan Munro 56:20
Totally, I think I would actually really agree with that, especially when I was a student and balancing off-season and even just getting back into training, it can be really hard to just – and like I think my coach was really good at recognizing that too is some days the mental stress of going to class and doing your schoolwork and studying can be almost just as tiring, if not more tiring than doing a three hour ride. So I think it’s important to – you know, maybe you’re doing less hours when you’re in school, but you’re still – it’s more quality over quantity at that point and I think something that really helped me when I was at that stage was finding people to ride with. So like finding – whether it was like collegiate practices or like, group rides and just kind of surrounding myself with people that were also in the same boat and could really relate to what I was trying to do and accomplish, and like, then I could have people to kind of lean on and help me motivate if I wasn’t feeling that all by myself.
Rob Pickels 57:16
Yeah, I think another great strategy for people to – you know, obviously, time management is really important, where, if you can free up some easy time in your day, then you need less motivation to actually make it happen, you know, and to continue with that theme, anything you can do to make training easier – if you have a bike that you can put on the trainer and leave on the trainer, then great, you’re more likely to get on the trainer than if you have a bike that’s dirty in the garage, you don’t want to, “Oh god”, you know, getting your clothes ready, making sure your bottles are ready before you go to class or whatever, so that you can get back and you can get right into it. Anything you can do to make your life easier actually means you need less motivation to accomplish the things that you need to accomplish. That’s huge.
Noah Granigan 57:57
I’m already paying for Zwift. Might as well use it.
Rob Pickels 58:01
Only when it’s snowy, though.
Grant Holicky 58:02
But for me, I think that’s where I use the trainer and I was walking downstairs on Monday here and it was a 60 degree day and my wife turned around and looked at me and went “you’re going on the trainer, it’s beautiful out!”. I said, “I have 45 minutes. I have an easy spin, and I want it to take 45 minutes” – And if I go outside, it’s an hour fifteen, it just is, that’s just the way it’s gonna go. Because it’s 60, but I still gotta put on more clothes, I still gotta get the bike ready, I still gotta do those things. So, yeah, leaning into what works when it’s in these places – and then like, “oh, okay, I don’t love the trainer, so how do I make the trainer better” and inviting people over to ride the trainer next to you, or putting on a movie or – Noah is apparently doing other things when he’s on the trainer – we don’t know but he’s doing other things – 100%
Noah Granigan 58:53
Rest periods, when I’m resting.
Advice for Masters Athletes in the Off-Season
Grant Holicky 58:55
I think by “other things”, you mostly mean scrolling Instagram…but no, so I think that’s a big, a big deal, Rob, I want to finish with you a little bit on this – for Masters athletes, what’s your advice in the off-season to keep the motivation going?
Rob Pickels 59:12
Yeah, definitely, Grant – you know, three out of the four of us in this room are affiliated with Forever Endurance.
Madigan Munro 59:18
What!
Rob Pickels 59:20
One of the mottos with Forever Endurance is, “find your why”, right? And I think that that’s really important for people is, “why are you involved with this?” What do you love about riding? Use that to motivate you. Use that to channel that energy that you have – and we spend so much time throughout the year focused on the minutia that this is the time to take that step back and look at the big picture, right, you’re beginning to think about events that you want to do next year – that’s motivating, just your love of the thing. Heck, get on and do some vO2 max intervals, if that’s what you love doing – it might not be the perfect training for December, but if that’s what you like, if that’s your why, then that’s the stuff that you should be doing – and I think that people run into problems when they are doing the “I have to”s, not the “I want to”s. And the “I want to”s are really important. The “I have to”s are super important in July, the “I want to”s are super important in December and January.
Grant Holicky 1:00:17
Yeah, I think that’s an important piece, right? And – I think I’m a little unusual in this – but I’ve gotten to the point where I really like training, and I just really like training hard – And so I’ll go out and do something really hard in December for no good reason, just – I like that feeling of being somewhat wrecked.
Rob Pickels 1:00:26
Yeah. And people will look at you be like, “Why are you doing that?” And you’re like, “I’m not doing it because I have to.”
Grant Holicky 1:00:37
No but that also increases my motivation, right? If I have that, like – kind of talking to Noah’s point of “make hay while the sun is shining”, if I have the motivation, and I go down and I rip something, I tend to walk out of it with a little bit more motivation, right? Because I pat myself on the back, I feel pretty good that I did it. Like, hey, everybody, look at me, you stand in front of the mirror and like…yeah!
Rob Pickels 1:01:01
He has his wife and kids lined up while he’s on the trainer. They’re like, “Go, Dad, go”!
Madigan Munro 1:01:06
“You’re doing awesome!”
Grant Holicky 1:01:07
No, they would never do that. They’d be like, like, “really, what are you – God, dad, bye….”
Noah Granigan 1:01:15
“God, you’re sweaty.”
Grant Holicky 1:01:17
My wife would just shake her head and walk away, and she does the same thing for her. But no, I think that’s a big piece of it, right, is kind of lean in when you can lean in.
Trevor Connor 1:01:27
So before we let our hosts and guests go, we do have a question for the forum – and again, should be a pretty obvious one – how do you stay motivated in the early season?
Grant Holicky 1:01:38
All right? Well, I think that about covers it. Huge thank you, Noah, thanks for being here. Really appreciate it.
Noah Granigan 1:01:45
Thanks for having me.
Grant Holicky 1:01:46
Maddie, thanks for being here. As you just start your off-season training, are you back on the bike?
Madigan Munro 1:01:52
I am, yes. Day three.
Rob Pickels 1:01:55
Day three, three days in a row.
Grant Holicky 1:01:57
Noah, you’ve been back on the bike two weeks?
Noah Granigan 1:02:00
Something like that, yeah, yeah.
Grant Holicky 1:02:02
And then, you know, it’s almost the holiday, so he’s back off anyway.
Noah Granigan 1:02:05
Coming into off-season two, starting to plan for off season three.
Grant Holicky 1:02:10
Rob’s been in off-season since August, right, Rob?
Rob Pickels 1:02:13
I didn’t even have a season this year, but you saw me, I rode last night. I had the head lamp on, I had the bar lights on. I had my holy Rafa tights with my low leather shoes when you saw me at that point in time.
Grant Holicky 1:02:27
And Rob’s outfit last night was amazing.
Rob Pickels 1:02:29
Wel, I went – dude, I had to go to practice straight from work.
Grant Holicky 1:02:32
You looked amazing.
Rob Pickels 1:02:32
So the combination of clothing that I had available to me when I was wet and cold after riding –
Grant Holicky 1:02:37
He walks over, he’s fully kitted with his leather dress shoes, and I think you had on like a jacket –
Rob Pickels 1:02:44
It was a – like a Arcteryx puffy vest.
Grant Holicky 1:02:47
It was perfect. Yeah, he looked amazing.
Rob Pickels 1:02:49
I did.
Grant Holicky 1:02:50
Well, we hope all of you have an amazing off-season, and hopefully this has been entertaining on your ride, and maybe you’ve taken a little something to help your off-season motivation going forward.
Trevor Connor 1:03:00
That was another episode of Fast Talk. The thoughts and opinions expressed on Fast Talk are those of the individual. Subscribe to Fast Talk wherever you prefer to find your favorite podcast. Be sure to leave us a radio and a review. As always, we love your feedback. Tweet us at @fasttalklabs. Join the conversation at forums.fasttalklabs.com or learn from our experts at fasttalklabs.com. For Maddie Monroe, Noah Granigan, Robbie Ventura, Grant Holicky and Rob Pickels, thanks for listening.
