At the start of 2024, Jack Burke decided to give up on his dream of being a WorldTour cyclist, despite getting painfully close to making it happen. COVID-19, a lack of funding, and being a Canadian in Europe all added up to an insurmountable barrier. So, he got a job, took the pressure off himself, and decided to ride for fun. His biggest goal for the fall was the Zwift Academy challenge, but even there he wasn’t turning heads. One day, he went out with a friend and attacked the Stelvio for fun—and set the Strava record.
RELATED: Episode 310—Lessons Learned Trying to “Make It” as a Pro
Suddenly, he had a new mission. He went after Alpe d’Huez next, beating Sepp Kuss’ Strava record by nine seconds. Finally, he took the Mortirolo, averaging over 400 watts. Now, at the end of a year where he had given up on pro cycling, he’s talking with multiple WorldTour teams—something he thought impossible only a few months before.
Hosts Chris Case and Trevor Connor talk with Jack about these record attempts: What motivated him, how he paced the climbs, what his training looked like leading in, and whether the lack of pressure was a key ingredient that he’s losing now that everyone is expecting him to go pro. If there’s one message that Jack has to share, it’s about the importance of enjoyment.
Whether he races the Tour de France in 2025 or chalks this up to one final moment on the bike before moving on to a new career, we here at Fast Talk are going to root Jack on—if for anything, the fact that he has already proven that grit takes you far and nothing is impossible.
So, bust out your Strava KOMs and let’s make you fast!
RELATED: Episode 70—Finding Your Strengths Through Failure, with Armando Mastracci
Episode Transcript
Trevor Connor 00:04
Hello and Welcome to Fast talk. Your source for the science of endurance performance. I’m your host, Trevor Connor here, and I’m happy to say with Chris case returning as one of our CO hosts. At the start of 2024 Jack Burke decided to give up his dream of being a world tour cyclist, despite getting painfully close COVID, lack of funding and being a Canadian Europe all added up to an insurmountable barrier. So he got a job, took the pressure off himself and decided to ride for fun. His biggest goal for the fall was the Zwift Academy challenge. But even there, he wasn’t turning heads. So he went out with a friend and attacked estelvio for fun and set the record. Suddenly had a new mission. He went after Al duez Next, beating sepuses strava record by nine seconds. Then he took the Motorola averaging over 400 watts. Now, at the end of a year where he had given up on pro cycling, he’s talking with multiple World Tour teams, something he thought impossible only a few months before. So today, we’ll talk to Jack about his record attempts, what motivated him, how he paced the climbs, what his training looked like, leaning in, and whether the lack of pressure was a key ingredient that he’s losing now that everyone is expecting him to go pro. If there was one message that Jack had to share, it’s about the importance of enjoyment, whether he races the tour in 2025 or chalks us up to one final big moment on the bike before moving on to a new career. We here at fast talk are going to root for it, if for anything. The fact that Jack has already proven that grit takes you far. Nothing is impossible. So bust out your Strava aoms, and let’s make you fast. Well, Jack, welcome back to the show. This was not expected, but this is a hell of a good reason to have you on the show. And
Jack Burke 01:40
nothing this year has been planned, and it’s turning out great.
Trevor Connor 01:45
So for any of our listeners who might remember this, we had jack on the show. This was episode 310, I think this was last winter, where we were talking about the struggles of making it Pro, that you can be strong enough and still it can be a huge challenge to make it. And you told a lot of your story, but it turns out the story wasn’t over. So tell us what happened in the last couple weeks. Yeah.
Jack Burke 02:08
I mean, okay, so if I try to summarize this whole year, so the last couple weeks, I broke the record up the Stelvio, the alt doez and the Motorola, and that’s been the thing that got famous. But basically, this year, I hadn’t planned on racing, like I was really content with my cycling career being done, so I had essentially been retired for like 18 months, and was just working on, like, normal life stuff, and just exercising like a normal human does to give their brain a break. Well, yeah, like I would, I’d work on the computer for like four or five hours in the morning, and then my brain would be shot, and I’d be like, I’d go ride for like three hours or so, and I’d come back, and I’d get back to work. But and then through my podcast, I heard of a coach named Steve Neal, who I’d never heard of before, who’s like this Canadian coach for 30 years, Trevor. I know you know him. I’d never heard of Steve before. I heard about him through Swain, Swain tough, and then I was like, Oh, this would be a cool guy to have on my podcast. I just went into this thing wanting to record a podcast with him, and I was so impressed by him. By the end of this two hour podcast, I was so impressed, I wanted this guy to work with me. So we spoke for another two hours after we finished recording, and by the end of it, he’s telling me he wants to start coaching me. And I’m like, for what like, for biking, mountain biking, or skiing, because I was planning to race the ski mountain during World Cup this winter. And he’s like, no, no, no, let’s just start training again. Like, that’d be good. Like, let’s just see what happens. I’m like, Okay, sure. So I started training, like, properly training again in May. And then my friend started talking me into doing all these amateur races. And I did all these amateur races, and I won all of them, which was awesome. And like, I was flying
Chris Case 03:26
by August. What country are you living in? And where were you racing? I’m in
Jack Burke 03:30
Austria. So most of the races were here in Austria that I did. And so, like, some of them are, like, the biggest amateur races, like the Grand fondo World Championships, let’s call it that, or the unofficial Gran Fondo World Championships. And I won those, and I broke the course record at some of them. And then I put the files up on Strava. And then some of my friends who race in the world tour started reaching out to me, being like, dude, these are really good. Like, you need to send these to pro teams and stuff. And I was like, okay, like, cool. Like that. It’s nice to hear, but I didn’t really think anything of it. And then by the end of September, the start of October, I was like, obviously still, well, I don’t know if I was still getting better, but I was, like, so fresh to training, I was like, I wanted to keep going, but the cycling season’s done by then. So I came up with the side goal of I’ll do the Zwift Academy thing as a side goal, or like a intermediate goal, to keep me in shape to get ready to start the scheme out during World Cup season, because Zwift Academy ends at the end of November. So I would train for that. That would be the goal to keep me motivated. And I’m basically training for like, a one hour effort, which is what ski mountaineering is. And then as soon as the Zwift Academy ended, I jump on my skis and start the World Cup schema season, and if something good came of it awesome. But like, I wasn’t expecting that. And then I was doing all these trainer workout things, and it was driving me crazy, and it was really killing my motivation, because it was like, such nice weather, and I’m sweating on the balcony while my friends are out having fun. And then there was, like, one day I was doing these workouts, like just practicing, getting ready for it, and nothing’s connecting. Everything needs to be calibrated. My Wi Fi connection is not strong enough, and now I’m like, losing my because I’m like, I’m just trying to get a workout in. And I’m like, I’m dealing with Wi Fi connections, and I just want a freaking workout in. And so I finished it, and then I texted my coach. Which I was just like, tomorrow, I’m taking a rest day, and then I’m gonna drive to the bottom of the Stelvio, and I just want to test myself, because the trainer says I suck, but I think I’m going okay right now, and I just want to see how I go outside. And so I went to the Stelvio with one of my buddies, and I just went up, and I just wanted to see if I could get the record. And I didn’t think I was going that well in the middle of it, like I wanted to quit, like, halfway up, I was just like, because my heart rate wasn’t going up at all. And I was like, Oh, I’m just not on that great of a day. Should probably just turn around. But anyways, I got to the top, it’s like, one degree and raining. My buddy comes up to me, and I’m just like, Yeah, I think I got the record. And he’s stoked. And then, like, we wanted to leave, and as we’re, like, putting our jackets on to, like, ride down and leave, his girlfriend called him because she knew we were going there. And she’s like, did Jack get it? And it was like, yeah, yeah, we think he got it. And then she’s like, You have to make a video of it. Like, we’re, like, a video of what it’s like, snow, rain, we’re freezing cold, like there’s nothing here, like it’s clouds. What are we gonna make a video of? So my buddy makes this terrible five second video of me. We put it on Instagram, and it has like, 460,000 views at this point. Like, it went ridiculous. And I was just like, Are you kidding me? And like, for a day i was the most trending rider on Pro Cycling stats, like, I had a Bucha, which is hilarious. And I’m like, Are you serious? Like, out of everything I’ve put myself through my whole life, this is the thing that gets attention. And then, yeah, so that’s the thing that started it, but that wasn’t planned. And then I got a bike to borrow from Scott, like, the bike company this year, and they were just like, yeah. Like, just go do your thing and, like, tag us on Instagram. And so when they saw this, they were so stoked. They were like, This is amazing. Like, this guy’s over delivering big time. He just got to borrow a bike. And then they were like, I was hanging out with some of my friends at their head office because it’s really close to where I live. And they were like, Jack, we have a new bike for you for next year. Do you want to see it? And I’m just like, yeah, I want to see it. And then so they showed me the next year’s version of this bike, and they’re like, What do you think you can do with this? And I was like, oh, there’s no snow on aldose yet. Like, I wonder if I could go do that. I thought of the idea. And then I told my buddies about it, just thinking they think it’s cool, because I was just planning to just go drive there and give it a crack before there was snow. Because, like, when you have good fitness, you want to use it exactly so. And then my friends were just like, Oh, we’re coming with you. And so my buddies made, like, a cool biking trip out of it. And then this guy that had interviewed me on his podcast who has a YouTube channel, he I told him about it, and he was thinking I was talking about doing it next year, and so he was gonna, like, Come film it. And I’m just like, No, next week. And he’s like, oh, okay, so we all got together in France. I drove there with a bunch of my friends. I went and did alt doez. I got the record on that one, but then I couldn’t tell anybody about it for like, two and a half weeks because the bike hadn’t been released yet. And this was driving me freaking nuts, because I was just like, Are you kidding me? Like, I got the record of alt doez, and now I can’t tell anyone for two and a half weeks. And then, so that was on a Monday that I did alt doez. We drove home, and then on like, a Wednesday or a Thursday, I found out I didn’t make the first round cuts for Zwift Academy. And I was really bummed about this, because I was like, Man, are you serious? Like, I did everything for this. I did I checked all the boxes and, like, I don’t even make the first round cuts, but I’m strong enough to
Trevor Connor 07:48
do this. Like, come on, so he’s just set the record, and Aldo as but you’re not strong enough to make the first cut of Zwift Academy. I
Jack Burke 07:56
was like, Man, I really suck on these trainers. Like, this is not good.
Chris Case 07:59
That shows you the difference between those two worlds, right? Like outside versus inside, they’re different, yeah, so
Jack Burke 08:05
I don’t know. So I was pissed about this, like, my ego was a bit bruised from this, so I was like, Oh, fine. Like, I’m gonna go see if I can go get the record on the Motorola because a guy who came on my podcast earlier that year asked me on Hello Moza. He raced in the world tour for trek, then he lost his spot on trek, came on my podcast, and just told about how hard that was. And on the first podcast we did, because we did two episodes. On the first one, he was talking about, that was the spring of this year, he was talking about, yeah, I’m gonna get back to the world through. I’m gonna do like, gravel racing and do like these power tests and stuff, and send that to teams, and that’ll get me back to the world through. And I’m like, I mean, dude, I’m your biggest cheerleader. Like, if you want to go for this, all for it. But I don’t think this is gonna work. And then he went and tested himself on the Motorola, and did a great time on that, and that got him a contract back to the world tour. So I’m like, I’m gonna give this shot then. And I was so close to not. The thing is, with the Motorola, it was like, one of the best performances I’ve ever done. And, like, that was one of the days where you just have, like, you feel the best legs ever. Versus the other two. I didn’t really feel that great for them, but I was so close to not doing it. But it was just like, I just drove four hours in my car, drove to the bottom, just me by myself, went and did it, came back, and I was so stoked I did it. But, oh, sorry. The other thing, it’s like, I did the Motorola because I couldn’t tell anyone about alt doez. So I’m like, Okay, this will, like, tie me over until I can tell everybody about that one.
09:17
So give us a sense, just for any of our listeners who are wondering al duez, so you were right around, was it 35 minutes? I think 3556
Jack Burke 09:27
was my time. And SEPs is like 3605 I think, yep. And
09:30
then Roman bar day is 3623 just the company you see in this top 10 is incredible, but basically 36 minutes, what’s your weight, what was your average wattage?
Jack Burke 09:40
I was between 66 and 67 kilos for all of those alts, I think was 420 Stelvio was, I want to say it was around 400 but the Stelvio, it’s like an hour and eight minutes long, and it finishes at 2800 meters. So that was actually a really good one. And then the Motorola, I think other people seem to say the Stelvio is the better one. Because of the altitude, I personally felt like the Motorola was the best one. The Motorola was around 45 minutes at 435 or maybe 437 something like that. That was a good one.
Trevor Connor 10:10
That is impressive. So I kind of want to dive into this. Let’s pick one of them. I think probably the one that you’ve gotten the most traction on is your ALP, the Wez record. Tell us a little bit about the actual effort, what it felt like, what you were thinking, how you were pushing yourself. Was it just, I’m gonna put my head down and go really hard for 35 minutes? Did you break it up? How did you approach it
Jack Burke 10:30
honestly, out of all the things I did this year, I think outdoors is my worst performance, because I did executing it. No, no, but it’s, I’ll give you a good answer, but it’s like, no, I just overpassed it for alt doers that I mean, I don’t I just, I don’t know. I didn’t feel like I had great legs on the day. And then also, I just overpassed it because I thought I was on a way better day than I was. But what’s really cool is, so my coach, who I started working with this year, Steve Neal, he started talking about this crazy training software called exert, which is another Canadian software, and I’d never heard of it before. And he was talking about at the beginning and how it’s like, this AI software that can, like, Guess your zones and all this kind of stuff. And I’m like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, whatever, sure. Of course it does. And then it was dead accurate for so many different races that I did this year. And so by the time we’re doing these killers, I was like, Okay, I trust this thing. Like, I’ll give it a shot. So he used that software to come up with my pacing strategy for the Stelvio. Clearly that worked. Then he came up with the same one for Al duez. But at the start of Al duez, I got really excited, probably because also my buddies were there, like, just cheering, because the other ones was just like me just riding up a hill, versus, like this one, my buddies are like, just screaming on the side of the road, like they were driving up and down in a van to try to, like, take photos and stuff. And I think I went out way too hot at the start of, yeah, I definitely went out way too hot at the start of alt doez. And I swear I lost three years off my life with this one, like I was so dead by the end of it, like I cracked so on this software they can see, like, when you come to your breaking point. And normally, if you come to your breaking point once you’re finished, like, you can’t go. And he said for me as like, you hit it three times. I’m like, Yeah, I felt it like I, well, the other thing it’s like I was only standing for, like, less than 30 seconds of the entire alt douez and the Stelvio effort. I was seated the whole time for it. And then the Motorola is when I started standing again for it. And I think that has to do with the fact that I spent so much time on the trainer before those ones that I just wasn’t used to standing anymore. And then I remember trying to get out of the saddle at the top of alt doers. And also, because my hands were completely frozen. I was like, I didn’t really feel comfortable holding on to the bars when I was standing because I couldn’t work my hands properly. And I was like, Oh, I can’t even hold myself up right now. So I’m just like, Wait, like, your core strength everything is gone by this point. So you’re just like, wiggling all over the bike, like, just praying you get to the top. Because I didn’t know if I’d get out. The was like, because it was so close, because I only got it by nine seconds. So I, yeah, I killed myself for this one. You’re
Chris Case 12:45
going into this though, and you’re not, you’re not really trying to be on a peak. You’re just kind of doing it for fun, right? So how much do you think you actually could go faster if everything were optimized? Well, actually, I
Jack Burke 12:58
do think, like for the fitness, the best fitness I had this year, without question, was the UTZ style, which was one of the races I won earlier this year. And that would have been the end of August, 3 of September, and then I was sort of like going downhill from there and just trying to hold on to as much fitness as I could from there. I think I did the best job at, let’s call it like peaking for these efforts with the fitness that I had. And I sound so arrogant saying this, and I don’t mean it to be that way. I just, I hope it’s encouraging for other people, but it’s like, I really feel like I only got to, like, 80 to 85% of my best this year, because I wasn’t taking it seriously. The rest of my life I’ve been Eat, sleep, breathe, training this year again, I didn’t plan on racing at all until, like, May, June, and then I was just doing it for fun and just really enjoying it. And so I think I was much more efficient with my training this year, but I didn’t put in the same level of effort. So that’s the thing that kind of motivates me for next year, being like, Huh, okay, if I really, like, go all in on this again, I wonder if I could get any better.
Trevor Connor 13:47
Here’s the question for you. Doing it for fun. Did that give some advantages? Were you able to go to the climbs and be less stressed and go, you know, doesn’t matter whether I do this or not, so I’m just gonna give it my all. If I explode, I explode. Versus if you had the whole media there and you know, contract was on the line and you felt the pressure, would that actually have hurt you a little? Yeah, absolutely.
Jack Burke 14:09
Again, it sounds terrible, but it’s like I hope to get the main point across. Since I was 14 years old, I have never not tried so hard as I did this year, because it was really just for fun. But I’ve never had so much fun racing my bike. So I really think I just trained way more efficiently this year. I’ve never enjoyed it more. And the other thing, it actually has nothing to do with, like, media and stuff. So if, let’s say these were races, because the other races that I did this year, there was, like a TV helicopter for one of them, like, it’s all over TV, and there’s all that sort of, let’s call it pressure. But I didn’t feel any of that pressure, because it was, for the first time in my life, I had some other stuff. It’s not like your whole self worth is down your last race result. And that’s why I really enjoyed it, because I was jacked the athlete for three to five hours a day, and then I’d stop and I’d go back to being like a normal human. And compared to the rest of my life, where it’s like you finished training and then all you’re doing is thinking about the next session, you
Chris Case 14:56
had more balance. And for those who don’t know, you’re 29 now, is that correct? Yeah, yeah, exactly No. Trevor’s the old man, believe me,
Trevor Connor 15:03
I got that claim in this room,
Jack Burke 15:07
36 right? Oh, yeah,
Trevor Connor 15:12
at night, and then I wake up, and then I look in the mirror and go, Oh, you’re not 36 this is what my nephews and nieces, who are in their 20s and just don’t get aging at all, they ask me what it’s like, and I kind of go in your head, you’re still 26 or 30. You just wake up in the morning. You look in the mirror and go, Oh God, that must have been a bad night. So you said that one you overcooked. The other efforts were better. Tell us a little bit about how you pace those for the
Jack Burke 15:40
Stelvio Steve told me before that I could do about 400 for it. And because the software that he used, the pacing plan, he came up, and he’s like, I think you can do about 400 and if you do that, you should break the record, no problem. So then it’s, you don’t need to get greedy and do any more for it. So I just went and did that again, because there was no pressure for any of these. But there was really no pressure for this one, because it was just me testing to, like, bump my own ego up because I was hating the trainer so much. And then al duez, I knew it was going to be really close. And while your friends there, like hyping you up, I went way too hot for it. And then for the Motorola, I kind of learned my lesson on alt doez. And I was like, okay, Steve told me I could do about 420 for 45 minutes. And so I stuck to that the whole time. And then, like, halfway up, it felt easy, or like I had a lot more to give. And I was like, no, no, no, come on, like the pain’s gonna come. Don’t go looking for it, like it’s gonna be fine. And then I just finally told myself, okay, with 10 minutes to go if you still feel amazing, go bananas. Go crazy, if you want. And then so I just ramped it up a lot more in the last 10 to 15 minutes.
Trevor Connor 16:35
So you weren’t trying to do anything complex. You weren’t trying to do negative splits or anything like that. This was just a you had a target wattage that the software was saying you could sustain this, and that’s what you tried to hold, yeah, exactly.
Jack Burke 16:46
And so I think there’s, like, there’s all these other apps and stuff like, I think you can get if you have a Strava premium account. I think there’s like, an app where it’ll show you, like, how you’re doing, and then this exert software. There’s also an app you can get on your garmin where it will show you exactly how close you are to the limit. And then, but I never used any of this because I’ve never because I’ve never done that my whole life, like since I was a junior. It’s like, power, speed, Cadence, heart rate. That’s all I’ve looked at. So I was like, I’m not going to complicate it. Now I know the I’ve done this my whole life, I’m just going to stick with that.
Chris Case 17:13
And for those who don’t know, the Mortirolo is beast. It’s never easy Jack. It’s very steep. It’s notorious. It has, it’s got the reputation of being one of the hardest climbs in the world, because it’s relentless.
Jack Burke 17:26
I felt terrible every time, except the time that I went real fast up, and I felt terrible every other time of it, because I’ve done that climb a lot of times, and it’s horrible every other
Trevor Connor 17:33
time. Which reminds me, Jack, I need you to do me a favor. Chris is over there. Every once in a while, I need you to take him up the Motorola, drop him mind. A little
17:43
clip climb that should be easy to do.
Trevor Connor 17:45
Take a picture of him as he comes up 10 minutes later, because this is what Chris does to me every time we do a climb together.
Jack Burke 17:53
It’s horrible because I don’t even know, I think the average grade is something like 11% but it’s ramps, like there’s flat parts in it, so there’s steps at like 20% the whole way up.
Chris Case 18:02
I’m looking at the profile right now. It’s 12.2k there’s multiple sides up the Motorola, but the famous one, the quote, unquote, hard side, is 12k 10.8% call it 11% average, with the steepest up to 18% so it’s nasty. It does not relent. I
Trevor Connor 18:17
will say this interesting in how you address this when you’re doing a really steep climb and you hit those points where it drops down to two 3% those are the hardest, because you can get in kind of into mode on the steep stuff, but it’s really hard to keep the wattage up when it levels out like that. Yeah. But
Jack Burke 18:34
so I think this comes from, like, having spent my life racing is you treat it like a race there where it’s like you actually just you back off the power a lot more and just get really arrow and just try to almost flush your legs for a second. Like, don’t try to keep the watts on the flat part, because it’s just so much less efficient. Like, ease off the watts, flush your legs a little bit, and just be really arrow for a few seconds and just carry like, that’s when you’re looking at speed more than power. That’s how I did it, at least good
Trevor Connor 18:56
point. Now, a question I’ve been wanting to ask you since you brought this up. You essentially, by the software cracked three times in Alpe d’Huez, you had to have been hurting. How did you push yourself through that? How did you get to that level of pain and just go, I gotta keep going. My
Jack Burke 19:10
friend’s screaming at me. The only reason I did it because I was just like, man, we drove eight hours in the car. We made a whole freaking trip out of this a couple seconds either way, because the thing is, we didn’t know if I got it until like an hour later. So after I finished it, there was like an hour of all of us just being very quiet and wondering, like, a few seconds, either way this is going to be like a trip we will remember for the rest of our lives, or such a waste of time, and just want to just depressing forget about this. And the thing is, like, honestly, I probably went harder there than if I had done it in a race. Because if I was in a race, and let’s say I was with like, three or four other guys, and I’d gotten that broken for it, I’d probably just quit, like, okay, they’re just gonna ride away from me. Like, I just can’t stay with these guys. So I probably would have quit a bit earlier, and then, okay, maybe if it was a time trial and there was like, all these fans and stuff, I probably would have gone just as hard. But I mean, really, with like, your friends just screaming in your ear the whole time, or not the whole time. They would like come back and forth at different points. Yeah, they got everything out of me.
Trevor Connor 20:04
So let’s shift gears. I want to talk to you about your training. So you said it’s different. You know, you have in the past, been 100% about the cycling. I remember you telling us stories about being in university and going out at nine o’clock at night to do six hour rides in the dark, things like that. You’re not doing that anymore. So what has changed? And obviously, you’re getting incredible results here. So what has changed for the better?
Jack Burke 20:26
Yeah, so I mean, overall, like, my training is just much more efficient now, like, for less effort, I’m getting better results out of it. But if I had to point to a couple things, and this is very true for like, North American versus European. So in North like, the way I grew up with training, and the way I raced in North America, and how most people would train in North America, because we raced, America, because we race much less in North America, is you do the typical, like, three weeks on one week off, like, build, build, build, rest week, all this kind of stuff. When I came to Europe, that completely changed, because you race every single weekend. You don’t have these big highs and lows, and then so in the past, like, for the rest of my life, I did this thing where I would finish these three weeks and just be, like, in a body bag at the end of it, like, you’re just dead, and then you can, like, creep along for like, five days, and then you’re flying again. And so you have these big peaks and valleys that way, this year, okay, for the like, maybe like, I think it would shock people to see, like, my training for the the KOMs that I did, because the volume was much less, because I was just on the trainer there. But let’s say between, like, June to the end of September, maybe, or Yeah, June to, like, mid September, it was basically just 18 to 25 hours a week every single week. Like there was no rest weeks. Every week was basically the same. I never took more than one rest day. I don’t ride on my rest days at all. I don’t touch my butt. I just work on in front of the computer on my rest days. And then it was three days on one day off, 20 to 25 hours every single week. Yeah, that was it again. And the thing is, it’s like the training, because it wasn’t as hard as that I’d been in the I mean, it was hard that I had to focus and stuff, but I wasn’t coming home crushed, or I was never crushing myself, that I could always just recover after one day. And so it was just very steady that way. And you see, like the progression is just very consistent, going up the whole time. So
Trevor Connor 21:54
now you say 25 hours, and you’re being more efficient. I know a lot of our listeners are hearing that and going, that’s my biggest week ever. So what sort of volume were you doing before? What have you come down from? Okay,
Jack Burke 22:05
so the biggest week I’ve ever done is 52 hours on the bike. And that was just like seven and a half hours every single day. That was stupid, like that. I only did that once because I just wanted to see what would happen. And it was not a good idea, duh. But there was so the best fitness I’ve ever had in my life would be February 2019, and now, looking back on it, this is what it makes it so clear to me about, like, how hard it is for the North Americans and Australians to make it in Europe. Because I just landed, I just got off the plane landed in Europe that, like, I could walk on water that week, as far as like, the numbers I was doing, like, it was incredible, the numbers I could do there and that winter before, so that was February, so the months that I spent in Canada training that was a lot of like, 38 to 45 hours a week because, and that was just with the bike and cross country skiing. And then there were a lot of gym sessions in there as well that I didn’t count towards those hours like that was just biking and cross country skiing time, because the fall and the winter is my favorite time of the year, because I can ski and bike in the same day. And I started doing that because I was having to train in the middle of the night when I was going to school. And then when I dropped out of school, I was like, Oh, I got was like, Oh, I got all this extra time now, like, I can just trade even more. And so I would go, like, biking during the day, and then cross country skiing at night. This is so cool, because I haven’t been able to do that since I got to Europe, because when I got to Europe, there was no way to do that. And then in the winters for the last four or five years, I would have to go home to Canada, and I’d be working these construction jobs to save up enough money to come back to Europe to race, and so I couldn’t do it then. But now, in these last couple weeks, I’ve started to do these double days again, where I’m skiing and biking in the same day, like I used to do years ago, except in Europe where I live, at least the cross country skiing is not very good, but the ski mountaineering is amazing, but I have to switch it, which I’m getting used to, where I go ski mountaineering in the morning, and then I go biking later in the day, like that’s the only way you can kind of make it work. I don’t think it works as well as how I did it in Canada. Because when I did it in Canada, I’d get the quality session done on the bike, and then I could just go get the hours in skiing after versus now I’m kind of using, like my fresh legs for skiing in the morning, and then it makes it harder to get the quality work on the bike later. But I’m refining this. I’m trying to get back to get back to this, but I love these double days,
Trevor Connor 24:02
so you say more efficient now. So some of that is less volume. What has changed with the work that you’re actually doing as well? Has anything changed? There is it just simply less volume? No, totally.
Jack Burke 24:13
So in the past, and I think this applies to everybody. I don’t think this is just me, but like, let’s say, I don’t know, 10 years ago, five to 10 years ago, a normal ride would be like, let’s say, a five or six hour ride, and it’s like two hours zone two and then three by 10 minute, 4020s, and then two to three hours ride home. Like there was a couple hours in all of those rides that were pretty unstructured, it was just about getting the hours in. Or there would be a long endurance day, like a seven hour endurance day, where it’s the end of the block, you’re tired, and it’s basically just getting the hours in. And that’s what I mean, like, as far as like, you do all these hard intervals, and then the last day, it’s like, just get the hours in. Like, basically, just go crush yourself, like, get you look at either hours or meters of climbing, and it wasn’t so structured. Versus now it’s like, every minute of every workout I do is completely structured to the point where I have to stare at my computer for five hours straight because it’s like, K. And powers. It was driving me nuts at first. Steve and I, we would not be friends if I had a phone plan to call him halfway through some of these workouts at the beginning of it, because he was driving me nuts with this. I used to just like, I’d go for a ride and I’d listen to my pump up music for my intervals, but then I’d like either listen to nothing or a podcast or an audio book or my country music for like, the just getting the hours in. Now it’s like Eminem and Rage Against the Machine for five hours straight. I need companies the whole time. I need it to focus. I can’t focus on anything else. Now,
Trevor Connor 25:26
is it all intensity, or is it just its structure, but not necessarily always with your tongue hanging out?
Jack Burke 25:32
No, that’s the thing. Like the training, it’s, can I say it’s easier? It’s like, it’s not that hard, like, he definitely trains me a bit easier. Like all of his zones are a little bit easier than what I would push and that was the thing he was fighting me on for the longest time. Like, he’d tell me a certain range to push, and I’d be like, dude, like, if you asked me to go any easier, I’m gonna wear my jeans for this ride. Like, come on. Like, I wanna, like, this isn’t worth getting changed for at this point. But, like, it’s structured the whole time that I gotta pay attention the whole time. But I don’t think there’s ever anything where I’m going all out, all out. Like, yeah, the only efforts I was doing that really had me at my Max was he was he was getting me to do a lot of torque work. And those were, it’s basically like, what were they, I think they were like, eight minutes long. It was maybe like five by eight at 40 to 50 rpm or so. You start at like 60 to 70, and as you get better at them, you lower the cadence. And then, I mean, I talked to some of the other guys, like some of the other pros on my podcast, and they’re talking about the power they’re pushing. I’m like, That’s all out, right? He’s like, no, no. It’s just like threshold. I’m like, Dude, if I’m doing threshold at 40 RPM, I am going all out. Like, it feels like my eyes are gonna pop out of my head at this point, like I’m gonna then you stop these efforts, and as soon as you stop because you’re on a steep climb, you almost, like, fall off the bike, because your muscles are just completely destroyed at this point. So
Trevor Connor 26:37
you’re doing a lot of low cadence work. Are you doing high cadence work as well? Yeah. So
Jack Burke 26:41
I do both of these things. So to be fair, I haven’t done any low cadence work for a long time. I was doing that, and I think that’s one of the things I was missing. So when I said, like, my best fitness I had was leading up to the style we were doing a lot of it leading up to that. And then after that, we kind of stopped with it, because I was just racing. I had a few more races to do, and then we got into this thing where I had to just focus on being on the trainer. And so we kind of stopped with that. And I really felt like I was missing some of that. Like during these KOMs, the big things I could feel I was missing is, one the volume, because the hours were very low for that, like, the aerobic engine I could feel I was missing, and the strength work from that low cadence work, and also just not being in the gym for, like, I don’t know, eight, nine months at this point, those are the two big areas. Like, I told my coach at the end of it, I was just like, hey, like, these are the two biggest areas I feel like I’m the weakest in right now that that that’s what’s limiting me. And he agreed. But see, I did a lot of low cadence work, a lot of those low cadence efforts and then, and it wasn’t always like Max short effort. Sometimes it would be like a half hour effort at low cadence. So I’m somebody who naturally has a very low cadence. And this is actually really interesting, because this changes like how I move. So when I grew up in Toronto, everything’s flat there, and so I do a lot of training on my time trial bike. And there’s not real, there’s not like the longest climb, it’s like eight minutes. It’s like Brimley. Brimley, the record is three and a half minutes. So sorry, not Brimley. What’s the one the Scarborough Bluffs, the the other morning glory ride, the one that goes down to the beaches? Yeah, that is one of the beaches. Isn’t that Brimley? Is that Brimley? That’s Brimley. That’s three and a half minutes. Three and a half minutes. Oh, geez, I’ve got I thought it was like eight minutes. Okay, all right,
Trevor Connor 28:03
anything eight minutes, you have to go, like, an hour and a half, two hours north of Toronto.
Jack Burke 28:07
So clearly I was a lot slower than because I thought it was like eight minutes for me. But anyways, and
Trevor Connor 28:12
that was back when I used to keep up with you, yeah,
Jack Burke 28:16
how things have changed? Eh, yes, no. But So basically, when I was in Toronto and racing as a junior, and I would spend a lot of time on my time trial bike. My cadence was really good. Like, I could actually hold, like, I look at some of the best time trials I ever did, my average cadence was like 110 and stuff like that. When I moved to the West Coast, I got obsessed with the mountains and, like, climbing a lot more, but because it was freezing cold, I think, like, my bike and all the bags and stuff I had, it was like 16 kilos or something like that at the point like it was so heavy from having all the stuff I needed, like, lights, food, clothing, all this kind of stuff. And that got me just riding at a really low cadence, because I just wasn’t paying attention to it at the time. I was just like, I wasn’t looking at cadence so much. And so I just got this bad habit of really low cadence. And then I got away with that throughout all my racing in North America. And it wasn’t until I came to Europe, when I’d be racing these classics where now you’re doing like crosswinds, where it’s like a max effort on a flat road at 45 50k an hour, you have to be spinning a really high gear. And this killed me a lot, and so I was constantly trying to figure this out for a long time. And the other big problem, this is so cool. So I’d always have these really bad problems with muscle cramps in the racing and I always thought it was the heat, because I really struggle with the heat. And I tried everything with, like, electrolytes and muscle gels and creams and all this kind of stuff, gym strength work, all this stuff to try to fix these issues I’d have with cramping. And it turns out the issue was I would always train at such a low cadence, like all my rides have, like, an average RPM of, like 65 to 70 for a whole ride, like, really low. And then when I started working with Steve, he started getting me to do these high cadence efforts. I brought in a lot of high cadence work. It was really hard for me at beginning, and then you slowly get more efficient. You get better at I’ve never had a cramp in a race ever since, like that was the thing that fixed it for me.
Trevor Connor 29:49
So the whole science behind cramping, there’s belief about electrolytes, that’s all been thrown out. So what causes cramping is something called altered neuromuscular control, and that’s something that you train with. Low and high cadence work? Yeah.
Jack Burke 30:01
So I was doing a lot of that, though, the one thing I will say about, like, the low and high cadence stuff, some guys still do this. Like, I ask all the pros that come on my podcast, like, what are the three workouts you do the most? And a couple of them mentioned this. And I remember I was doing this when Chris Baldwin was coaching me where and other people have probably done this interval. It’s such a classic one where it’s like a six minute interval, the first four minutes is low rpm, and the last two minutes is high cadence, and you’re doing that switch. Marco panati Later, I think it was him. He told me it’s like, this is nonsense. Like, you don’t really need to do this instant switch. You can separate it, like, you can focus on high cadence at a certain point and you can focus on low cadence at another point, but you don’t need to combine them like that. And so I was like, Okay, that makes sense, and I never noticed a difference from it. So I don’t put them, like, right beside each other. People are curious about
Chris Case 30:40
that. Yeah, sorry to switch gears, but I know that Steve Neal has some kind of unorthodox methods in the best of ways. I would say he thinks outside the box. What else do you do? Because of Steve’s encouragement in terms of your training, I know he’s, for instance, into breath work and breathing and that sort of stuff. Do any of that. I have not done
Jack Burke 30:59
any of that yet, so that’s all coming. Like that’s the stuff that I’m gonna start with. Gonna start playing with next year. I mean, Steve doesn’t really do anything crazy. Like, there’s nothing different. I mean, his training, it’s a little bit easier. Like, his zones are basically just, like, I don’t know, five to 10 watts or 20 watts lower than what I would normally train at. He loves data, he loves testing. He loves doing all this stuff. But the biggest thing that I get from him is because he’s never worked in the world tour zone. So like, all my information for the last whatever, 510, years has always come from my friends or, like, writers and coaches that I’ve reached out to in the world tour and it’s all pretty similar stuff. So for example, when on my podcast, when I ask a coach or a writer a question, I have a pretty good idea is, like, where the answer is going to go. Is that? Because it’s all sort of the same thing. But when I talked to Steve about the same thing. He gets to the same point, but because he doesn’t live in that bubble, he gets there a completely different way, like, he’s off in some other different field, doing stuff completely different, and he arrives at the same end point, but how he gets there is completely different. And that’s the thing that impressed me so much about this guy. Because I’m like, when I was doing that, that’s what impressed me about that first podcast I did with him. I’m like, okay, he’s not nuts. Like, he totally knows what he’s talking about. All this makes sense, but he’s, I’ve never heard of it explained this way, or thinking about it this way. And I was like, that’s interesting. Like, okay, this guy’s cool. Like, I can learn something here.
Trevor Connor 32:09
So when he has you going hard, let’s talk about that side of it. I’m sure he’s given you difficult interval work. Is it super hard? Is it longer, kind of more thresholdy? What type of intensity are
Jack Burke 32:20
you doing again? Aside from those, like five, I think it’s five by eight that we were doing. Those ones were like, basically Max all the time. Everything else he gave me, it was like, the first efforts not that hard. The second effort is not that hard, but it they’re spaced out throughout the five hour ride. So like the first two, it’s like, Oh, no problem. But then by like, the third, the fourth, and then the fifth in the fifth hour of it, then you’re dead. So it was never these Max efforts. Is a lot of Zone Two, and let’s call it sweet I mean, he doesn’t call it sweet spot, but basically, sweet spot for to make it easy for people to understand a lot of that stuff. And so at the beginning of the ride, it’s fine, but when you have to do it, and you’re doing intervals for five hours straight in the fourth and fifth hour, you’re really cooked at that point. But he’s
Trevor Connor 32:57
never given you a short workout with, you know, just some threshold efforts, or tabatas, anything like that. I don’t
Jack Burke 33:04
think so. But again, like, we haven’t really worked together that long, so I think that’s probably stuff. Like we just started working together in May, and the guy he got at the beginning of May was not a pro cyclist. He was like, having to kick me in the ass to do the training at the beginning of it. So he really took me a very long way from where we started. It’s not that I’m, I don’t know. So, like, now if we work together for a full year, maybe we’ll be doing a lot more this vo two Max stuff. I think it’s more that he hasn’t had time to do that stuff with me. But yeah, for the last whatever. How long it was nothing Max. The only sort of max intensity stuff I did was when I started doing the Swift Academy stuff. And those were not really his workouts at that point. Like, he gave me a couple workouts to, like, sort of practice for this, but mostly I was just doing the Zwift Academy workouts. And every single one of those workouts is a max, all out effort. So what I find really interesting about this is what you were describing to me is something that we’ve talked about before, which is, as you said, you weren’t really a pro cyclist. When you started working with them, he kind of brought you back. Sounds like he was doing a lot of work to really rebuild that aerobic engine for you get it back to a good place before really hitting that top intensity that you need for racing. You know, if I was doing that with somebody about six weeks before they start getting to the events, I would do some intensity, which sounds like you kind of naturally did with the Zwift Academy, and that probably gave that last little kick to your fitness that you needed to be able to go and do these sort of hill climb time trials that you did totally and then. So when I was saying before how I felt like I only ever sort of got to, like, 80 to 85% of my best this year, it was because, like, the big part that I felt I was missing was that aerobic base. Because one, we didn’t have time because we just started in May. And two, like, when we started, I was working a lot, like, I would tell them, it’s like, okay, I got three hours today. I got five hours today. I got two hours today. I wasn’t living like a pro, like, I only had a certain amount of time to train every day. And he was great about that. He was just like, yeah, just tell me whenever you can do it, and we’ll do whatever. If I were to go back and, like, do this as a pro, like, a full year, and that’s the big thing we’ve talked about over the last couple weeks. It’s like, yeah, the big thing you’re missing is just volume. Like, you need to just train more. And I’m like, Yeah, okay, if I go back to living like a pro, that’s what I’m gonna
Jared Berg 35:05
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Jack Burke 35:33
So want to shift gears a little bit here. Let’s talk to our listeners. A lot of them love to go hit those Strava climbs. They’re obviously, you know, I don’t think we’re talking to too many people besides you that are actually looking to set the record on the stavio or Aldo as but everybody’s got their own challenge that they want to go for. So we’ve talked about how you hit the climbs, how you approach them. We talked about the training. What recommendations would you have for any of our listeners who are doing their own Strava challenge or going for their own Hill Climb effort. What have you learned from this? I mean, the coolest thing that I’ve discovered this year is that exert training software. Like, I was such a non I did not believe in this thing at all. Like, when he was telling me at the beginning, I was like, yeah. Also, I didn’t really care about my training. I was like, Steve, I’ll just do whatever you tell me. Like, tell me what to do. I’ll do it. I don’t really need to know the details for it. And then when he started telling me, he’s like, Yeah, this thing can guess. What you can do. And I’m like, Yeah, whatever. And then when it’s like, getting, like, one after the next, right? I was like, okay, like, I finally believe it. And so I would say that was like, my, let’s call it like, secret weapon going into those, like, the last kms I did at the end of the year. Because I was just like, dude, okay, the climb is 36 minutes. I would just text him. I was like, okay, 36 minutes. What kind of wallets Can I push for that? And he’d give me a range, like, I think, for out the West. He said, You can do 415 to 420 and I think I ended it with 419 or 420 and so that’s good, like, just to have that number in the back of your head. And that’s why I think this is such a powerful tool. Like, if you’re going to go do time trials and stuff, if you just put it in the software and it’s like, Okay, here’s the time I want to do, what kind of watts Can I push? And there’s your pacing plan. Because here’s the other thing, my whole life, the way I paced a time trial for the rest of my life is you basically break it up into quarters, how I did it, or if there’s like, a headwind, a tailwind, a climb, all this kind of stuff. Okay, that stuff, you would still if there’s a headwind, a tailwind, a climb, a downhill, you have to keep that stuff in mind. But I didn’t come up with any other pacing plan other than looking at this number. So I didn’t break it like I the way I used to do it before this would be like, Okay, for the first five minutes, I’m not allowed to break this heart rate. Like, I’d make that rule for myself, like I can’t break 173 or something like that. And then for the next five to 10 minutes, I can ramp it up and I want to hit this power. And then for like, this next quarter, I would do this, and then for the last quarters, just all at whatever. I didn’t do that at all this time. I literally just had this goal number in my mind. And I just try to stay as close to that from start to finish, because at the start it feels really easy, and by the end, there’s nothing left.
Trevor Connor 37:42
So what I find really interesting is, I had a conversation with Swain tuft, who I know has helped you out. For anybody who doesn’t recognize the name, he’s gotten second at the World Time Trial championships. I mean, he is a beast on a time trial bike, and I had a conversation with him about pacing. And he said, The only thing he looks at is cadence. He has this old computer that he puts on his bike that just shows cadence, and he says, I’m just going after a feel, which is similar to what you’re saying. He’s not trying to be really complex. He’s just, he tries to get into a mode where he knows he’s pushing his best effort, and he just tries to hold it. It’s interesting. Do you end up in a very similar place? Yeah.
Jack Burke 38:15
But what I would say for that is I was doing just straight up a mountain. It basically just watts per kilo. There’s not so much around speed. Like, at that point, if you’re doing a normal time trial, I would look a lot more as far as, like, Okay, where’s the section with a lot of corners? Where’s the section with a headwind, tailwind? Like, then it does get more complicated. But for what I was doing was just really simple. It’s just, you just push. Do you feel
Chris Case 38:33
like the exert number serves as cruise control or a target? So you go out on maybe Motorola, and you have this number in your head, and you’re just trying to stick to that number. So that’s your target, or is it cruise control? Or, sorry, that would be cruise control, whereas on Alpe d’Huez, you’ve gone out too hard, you’re probably over that number substantially. At the beginning, your friends are cheering, you’re on, you’re excited, all that sort of stuff. So your average watts for the effort starts out high. So you’ve got this target that you’re kind of trying to get back down to, in a sense, is this making sense at all?
Jack Burke 39:11
No, no, it’s totally making sense. But what I would say is, because the number is so accurate for it, it’s both cruise control and a goal, because for the first half of the effort, or like, yeah, the first half of the whatever km, whatever it feels like cruise control. And it’s like, it’s only the last five to 10 minutes, or whatever when you’re, I don’t know, it depends on how long the effort was to still view. I think I was dying the whole time. But it’s like, it really you just arrived, like, I got to the finish line of all three of those. And the Motorola, I think I still had a bit left in the tank, which was actually driving me a bit crazy for that, because I was, like, sprinting for the last like, sprinting for the last bit of it. So I finally, I was so proud that I finally broke the stupid software on the last one. Like, I was so stoked to tell Steve, I finally beat your stupid software at the end of it. Like, finally. And the other thing, it is, like, the perfect goal, because it’s just attainable for the Stelvio and for Al duez. It was a goal. Because I was like, Okay, I gotta get to 420 by the end of this. Because I know that’s like, a record, if I can do that, and it says I can do it. So, like, because if it was, let’s say, 10 watts higher, I’d probably, like, mentally give up on it. Be like, I can’t do that. I can’t get my average up another 10 watts for this, but I can do two or three. It
Chris Case 40:16
seems like it’s quite a psychological boost. That number becomes sticky, like in a sense, and you just, you know, something’s out there telling you you can actually do this. So your brain is like, okay, I can do this. I’m gonna make it happen
Jack Burke 40:29
totally and so I said this. So I just recorded a podcast with Steve. This podcast that you guys are doing will probably go up before it, the one I did with Steve, won’t go up for a bit. But I’m so certain that this exert software is now gonna be used in pro racing, because you can see a graph of it that shows you how close like in real time on your garmin so you could be in a race, and you have the app on your computer, and it will show you, like exactly how close to your limit you are. So
Trevor Connor 40:52
a quick side point. Anybody who’s interested this goes way back. But episode 70, we had Armando on the show, and that whole episode, we were talking about this philosophy that he has of using your limits or your failure points to really identify your physiology, and you’re kind of living proof that there’s some value to this. It’s crazy.
Jack Burke 41:12
Honestly, I’ve said because when I was doing the intro for the podcast I did with Armando, it’s like, this is the best training tool I’ve found since I started keeping training logs on training peaks when I was, like, 13 or 14 years old, like, altitude tents, space boots, all like, Okay, if I had to choose between doing an altitude camp, well, like, I’m talking about, like, all the crazy toys, like, I’ve tried all this stuff over my career, okay, if I had to choose between exert or going to do an altitude camp, sure, I’d still pick an altitude camp. But if we’re talking about, like, a specific toy, like a training tool to use, like exerts, the best one I’ve found, it’s incredible if you know how to use it, like, you do need to know how to use it a bit like it is a tool. And I mean, I think that’s why Steve says he’s not gonna be out of a job anytime soon, because you need someone that knows how to use the tool. But it’s such a good tool to use. So let’s shift
Trevor Connor 41:50
gears. I do wanna ask you very quickly, tell us a little bit about your prep. You know, the few hours before each of these efforts was there, sciences, it sounds like you were sitting in the van for eight hours. So might not be the best question to ask. Do
Jack Burke 42:05
you want to know what breakfast was? Yeah, absolutely, the bowl of cine minis and two Red Bulls. There we go. No, it’s like, because it’s just sugar, like, just sugar and caffeine. So okay, yeah, I did apply, like, all the sort of, like, racing stuff that I’ve figured out over the years these time trials. So it was, like, low residue diet, just sugar before. I really like drinking Red Bull in the races and trainings. So much. So you have to, yeah, there’s that too, yeah, for sure. But like, I, what did I do? So I had a bowl of cine minis. What breakfast? Like, what is, what is Cindy? I mean, I get it, but is that like, cinnamon toast? Crunch? Cinnamon Toast, cinnamon. Okay, gotcha, yeah, exactly. The Europeans probably been healthier.
Trevor Connor 42:44
I am healthier. Maybe the box looks the same. So for anybody who’s interested, we did an episode not too long ago about nutrition, please check
Jack Burke 42:58
that out. I got this from Felix grossner, he said, or I think Adam Yates said this to him. It’s like, hey, motivation is key. It’s like, sometimes you got to have some ice cream, because motivation is key, absolutely. So, so, yeah, what did I have? So I had breakfast. Is just, yeah, a big bowl of Cindy minis. Or maybe it was like, Rice Krispies. I don’t remember. It was one of the two. I eat both of them so much. It’s a toss up, right? Yeah. Motivation is key. So that a cup of coffee, and then, so that would have been, I don’t know, three or four hours before. And then the thing with Alpe d’Huez is, like, we had to wait until the middle of the day because it was freezing cold. It was so cold we’re like, okay, warmest part of the day, that’s when we’re doing it. Alpe d’Huez and the Motorola. These are the and I don’t think, no, I didn’t wear any like warmers, arm warmers for the stevio and I was so cold for that one, but for Alpe d’Huez and the Motorola, those are the only times in my life I’ve used leg warmers or arm warmers, because I’ve always thought these are the dumbest things ever. Like, if I need to wear something on my arms or legs, I should just wear a long base layer or long winter tights. But I’m like, I can’t wear winter tights to do this, so I gotta, like, actually try using these things again. But no, we waited to the middle of the day to do it. I had a bowl of cine minis for breakfast. Wait, like, three hours or so, I did my warm up. I don’t even think I drank any water during it. Maybe I had, like, some water just to drink then. And then
Chris Case 44:08
we might have to cut all this section out.
Jack Burke 44:10
It’s like, it’s a time trial. It’s like, that much. No, it’s true. And then right before the start, I chugged two Red Bulls, and then I went for it, and that
Trevor Connor 44:19
was it. You know, I’m actually loving this, because I do think sometimes people get too concerned about doing everything perfect in their prep, which let me tell you, when you’re traveling somewhere to do a time trial or a hill climb and you’re trying to find your parking and do registration everything else, it’s never going to go perfectly, and then they go, Oh no, I’m not going to perform my best. So I actually like hearing you say, yeah, actually, you know, just keep it casual. Keep it casual. Chug a couple Red Bulls, which I’m not personally going to recommend, but and just go do the effort. It doesn’t have to be perfect, yeah?
Jack Burke 44:49
And, well, that’s the thing. It’s like, that’s why I enjoyed it so much this year. Like in the past, I completely emphasize with those guys that are so stressed about all the stuff being perfect, perfect, perfect. That was me my whole life. And it is like. This year. Like, I really didn’t care. I was just like, and that’s probably why I didn’t over train, because I was just like, I’m just gonna do what Steve says. Like, Jack a few years ago, would have been like, okay, whatever Steve says, plus an extra hour at the end, and then maybe I’ll do a second hour after that, and I just won’t upload that. So he thinks I only did one extra hour, but in reality, I did two. Like, that’s how I lived my whole life. If he gave me a five hour ride, I’d do seven, but he’d only see six. But like, this year, I was just like, yeah, whatever’s good enough. Like, I’ll just do that. I really, I just had fun with it, and it was not my goal to try to be a pro again, until a few weeks ago, when all this KM stuff started turning up. I was just having fun with it, and I enjoyed it so much more. And there’s a very big difference. And so I talked about this on a couple other podcasts, where you talk about, like, Joy versus relief, and you see so many guys, when they win a race, it’s they just won a race that is so hard to do. To win any bike race is so hard. And you see their face, and it’s just, like, relief, like, Oh my God, thank God, I’m not a loser. Like, I just, I sacrificed everything for this, and if you get second or third, you’re like, I gave my best, and I’m a loser. Like, I got second or third, this sucks. Or, like, maybe you didn’t even make the top 10. That’s horrible. Versus, you see some of the guys, like, I’ve never talked to tactic, poke char in my life, but like, when he wins a race, it seems like he’s just stoked and having fun. And that’s how I felt this year. I was just having fun. This year, I was so much happier racing. And because it racing wasn’t everything to me, it was just a fun thing to do. And it makes it more fun to put because you’re just like, it actually almost feels good to like, taste the blood in your lungs at that point, compared to like, when you taste the blood in your lungs and you’re like, oh my god, I’m about to get dropped. This sucks, versus just enjoying pushing
Chris Case 46:25
yourself. Have you felt that joy from other riders like you beat Sep? Did Sep reach out to you at all and congratulate you? Anybody at the World Tour level take notice of this? Or are they just like, yeah. So what? It’s a Strava Kom, to be
Jack Burke 46:37
clear, I did not beat Sep. Sep did a Tour de France station, much better cyclist than me, but SEP is a way better athlete than me. But, yeah, okay, this is funny. Like, I got so much critic, like, I got genuine hate mail from this. And I’m like, What
Chris Case 46:50
the heck? I’m not surprised humans, humans, you know, it’s insane hate
Trevor Connor 46:55
mail for what I
Jack Burke 46:56
have no idea. Like people, like, hate the fact that I got a Strava kill him, or, like, making sure I know that this is not the same as doing it in the Giro or the tour. I’m like, Duh. Like, I can’t register for the Tour de France. Like, I’m trying to get there. That’s the whole point of Strava. Like, I’m just doing my best with what I got here. I mean, 99.9% of it is just nothing but positivity and wonderful and all that stuff. But, like, you get a couple, like, just crazy messages for it. But here’s the thing, I actually counted it at one point. It’s now over 50 riders, coaches and managers in the world tour that have sent me messages where it’s like, amazing, Jack, this is so crazy. Like, you totally belong in the world tour. When are one of these teams gonna give you a shot? Like, it’s amazing, like nothing but positivity and encouragement. And Sep congratulated me for the alt Douz, one like all these other people making sure I know that SEP is better than me. I’m like, no, no question. I know that I’m not comparing myself to him, but Sep was stoked for me, because his message was, dude, amazing. You did that, and it’s zero degrees at the top. It’s freezing cold, yeah, and so cool. You did it with, and not in a race, with all the fans cheering for you and all the adrenaline. And, dude, you don’t even live like a pro. Like, this is amazing. Like, great job. Like, that’s the message I got from Sep. He’s nothing but stoked for it, and because I sent him a message after it, because I knew how crazy it went after the Stelvio and the Motorola, people were writing stories about me, how, like, oh, I crushed Nibali. And I’m like, what? Like, what are you talking about? Like, I look up to that guy. I don’t think that all. So I sent Sep a message after before I posted, being like, dude, just so you know, I have nothing but admiration for you guys. Like, I’m not trying to say I’m better than you guys. And he’s like, dude, no, no worries at all. Amazing. Like, great job. Like, so great. You did this. He was stoked.
Chris Case 48:29
Yeah, well, that says something about Sep, too. Yeah, right. He’s genuinely a good human being. Yeah, totally. Chris
Trevor Connor 48:35
and I did a time trial against Sep. He was at the bottom. Didn’t want to do it that he wasn’t on fitness, but he’d give a try anyway. And, yeah, we didn’t beat him.
Chris Case 48:44
No, this was a
Trevor Connor 48:47
lot. I
Chris Case 48:48
think he had not ridden a bike for several weeks at that point. No, that’s okay.
Jack Burke 48:53
So just to show how long I’ve been listening to this show for, I’ve heard this story before on a previous podcast, and wasn’t the story that he accidentally tripped the Start Timer during his warm up, and then still broke the record up, even though, yeah, yeah, because I heard this story before. Yes, he actually, I’m a super fan,
49:09
he got second, but it was to Tom Danielson. And Tom Danielson set the record at the time the day after testing positive.
Chris Case 49:18
There you go. Okay, so yeah, they’re probably both pretty far down the list at this point. You want
Jack Burke 49:23
to know something crazy about this. So the Aldo s thing, I lost years off my life for this. I went as hard as I could. I had, like, Arrow race suit on, like, nice, fast light bike, brand new bike, like, all this stuff good on it. And I was thinking, like, Oh, I wonder if I could get close to Marco pantanis time for this. It took everything I had to beat sepps time by nine seconds on that. Marco pantanis time is like two and a half minutes faster, and I think he did it on a nine kilo bike at the end of a Tour de France stage in 1995 when he probably ate a sandwich in the middle of the race. I was like, what this is ridiculous. I thought his time was slower than yours. No, he was like, two and. Half minutes faster Esther, and he did it in 1995 and you see the photos of like, the bike he’s riding. It looks like something from World War Two. I’m like, What world this is crazy. Like, that’s okay. He was flying. That’s insane.
Trevor Connor 50:17
So this does bring us to our final question. I’m sorry to go there, because we are getting towards the hour mark, and I would love to go another couple hours with this conversation. But when we had you on a year ago, it was really about, how do you get noticed? And it does seem that when we talk about something like this, going and setting a record on Strava, something that didn’t exist 15 years ago, are there more opportunities now, are there unique opportunities for cyclists to get noticed that didn’t exist in the past? It
Jack Burke 50:46
depends. If I get a world tour contract.
Trevor Connor 50:48
Come back to us? Yeah,
Jack Burke 50:50
exactly. Well, this is the hard thing. It’s like, if you had asked me about these KOMs and stuff like that, like, three or four weeks ago, I would have been stoked on it. Like I was just like, yeah, if I get a contract, amazing. But if not, like, I really enjoy the life that I have right now. But now it’s gotten to the point where there’s so much pressure on me, where everybody is expecting me to go to the World Tour. I’m like, how that’s ridiculous. Like, a 29 year old guy, I’ve tried my whole life to get here. I’d basically been retired for 18 months. I didn’t even plan any of this stuff, and then it comes up at the last minute. And now, like, that’s imagine if you just said that. And like, Oh, you’re gonna get a world tour contract from some KOMs, no chance. Like, nobody’s gonna say that. But now, because there’s been so much media behind it, it’s like everybody’s expecting that of me, and it’s the vibe. It’s like, if he doesn’t get a world tour contracts, like, oh, what’s wrong with you? And I’m like, What the hell? Like, that’s not fair. Like, that’s not making it fun for me anymore. Now, because I’m like, I was just having fun doing this, but it’s like people are gonna look at me. Like there’s something wrong with me if I don’t get a contract from it. And the other part that I would say about this, like, the part where it’s starting to mean something to me, it’s always meant something to me. Like, don’t get me wrong, my dream has always been to race in the world tour. But the part that gets hard for me, it’s like everything else I do, besides being Jack the athlete, like the podcast, the books, all this kind of stuff, like, is just about trying to help other guys, try to make it like, I think I do a better job at, you know, helping other guys than doing anything for myself. And I really enjoy that. But the part that’s going to be hard for me, it’s like, if I don’t get a chance out of this, if nothing sort of comes for this, I don’t want that to set like, a bad taste in people’s mouth for like, other guys to try like, I don’t want other guys to be like, What the hell like, it’s really impossible to make it after the under 20 threes, like, look, Jack broke the record up the Stelvio, Aldo s the Motorola. He did swift Academy. He did all of that. He won all the amateur races he did this year, and he still doesn’t get a chance like that would be a really thing for guys to look at that and then not even want to try, because you absolutely should try. But there is a luck factor of it as well. And the big thing that I have now realized, like looking back on all these years, and what makes it so clear to me is I look at the best fitness I’ve ever had in my life, February 2019, that is when I came from North America to Europe, there, because I was living at home and just training like a pro, and I had everything going for me. The last five years, it’s like I’ve spent my life like so much my energy has gone just to surviving here, like you have nothing here, and now you look at this last year, with the least effort, I have some amazing results for it, because I have a coach again, I have enough money that I can live from something that’s not biking. And I have, like, other hobbies which give me a little bit of balance, like I have those most basic things. And to be clear, like, part of it was me just over training in the past, because I was just doing everything by myself. I didn’t really have any help. Now I have this help, and it’s like I’m flying with, like, not trying as hard for it. I mean, the hardest part, like, I get a bit frustrated with this when I ask people like the experts, like the managers and directors in the world tour and guys that know far more than me, far more experienced, far more knowledgeable than me. When I ask them, it’s like, how do you make it if you miss the under 23 cutoff? And now it’s becoming more like a junior cut off, like, if you don’t make it by the juniors, you’re almost Sol, how do you make it? If you miss that cut off, and if you’re not from North America? And to, just like, to make this crystal clear, and I’m not saying I know everything here, but like, here’s the categories, show me somebody who has made it to the world tour from the continental level, because the pro Conti level, that is a medium step. Like, if you can get a good shot at pro Conti level, amazing. But those opportunities are very hard to find right now, since 2021 show me a rider who has made it after the under 23 cutoff, since 2021 because I think we would all agree, 2021 is when, sort of, like modern cycling sort of came around. Like, that’s when the shift in cycling sort of came around after the COVID lockdowns. And if you’re not from Europe, because to just say it’s like, oh, just go to the continental level and go win a bunch of point one and point two races. Like, Dude, I tried that for five years, you have nothing. Like, how do you expect a guy from Australia to come to Europe and live in Europe on 500 euros a month? Like, that does not cover rent and food. Like, how are you gonna do that? Like, for me, it was, I was working these construction jobs during the off season. Like, I basically didn’t train from October to Christmas because I was just working construction all the time. It’s like, that’s a big cost on your season that really hurts you, and now you’re like cram training, which doesn’t work from January until the start of the season. Like these are the real obstacles for guys. It’s still so hard for the European kids to make it if they missed the end of 23 cutoff, but the big advantage that they have is at least you can live at home. You have a support structure there. You can borrow mom and dad’s car. Maybe you’re not paying rent, maybe you’re not paying for food, that kind of stuff. So you have a bit more breathing room, but to expect these Canadians, Americans, Australians, British to come to Europe on a continental team to try to make it the old traditional way, I don’t think that traditional way works anymore, because the sport has gotten so young, and because the development teams are so professional, you’re basically competing against World Tour teams with nothing like you have nothing here. And that’s what’s so hard for these guys, and that’s why I always try to, like, find an answer or some sort of encouragement for those guys. It’s like, Hey, you should still try, but I hope, like, what I’ve sort of showed this year, it’s like, look, I mean, I did really well this year, because I just had these basic things figured out. And it’s so important to get these things sorted in your life if you want to give yourself the best chance to make it
Trevor Connor 55:38
what really has caught my attention is so it was about a year ago that we recorded with you, and in that episode, I just heard this, I have to make it. How do I do this? Just anything I will chew lead, molten lava, whatever it takes. Give it to me.
Chris Case 55:55
Now, desperation. There was desperation. What I’m
Trevor Connor 55:59
hearing from you is much more. I have balance. I’m having fun, and all of a sudden, things are working out. You know, things are going really well. I don’t know if that’s the answer, but to me, this whole episode, and I was gonna save this for my take home, but it’s just the difference in you and seeing how much success you’re now having, allowing yourself to say, this isn’t everything. This isn’t the end all be all. I want to have some fun while I’m doing this. To me, that’s a really important lesson. I hope with all these people now putting pressure on you, you don’t lose that. Well, that’s the
Jack Burke 56:31
part that’s starting to suck the fun out of it. It’s like, I’m just having fun with it, but it’s like the pressure from everybody else, where I have five magazines calling or news sites calling me every day wanting an update on this. I’m like, Dude, I don’t know. I don’t think it’s going to happen. Like you guys are all convinced it’s going to happen. But to go back to your point there, Trevor, because I want to make sure people get the correct lesson out of this. Because I’ve talked about this before. I do think when you’re starting in cycling for the first part, like the first I mean, for me, it was probably from the time I was 14 until, let’s say, I don’t know, 2223 it was just eat, sleep and breathe, cycling, no. Balance, 100% go, go, go. And I do think that is important, and I do think you can’t skip that step, because all the success that I’ve had now, yes, okay, now I have more balance in my life, but I also have 10 years of killing myself to get to that point. And I think it’s an example of what got you here. Won’t get you there, because I got to a point where I just, I couldn’t push anymore, and I was just gripping the handlebars too tight. And so, yes, at the beginning, when you’re just trying to make it to get to that world class level, like once you’re competing on the world stage, to get to that point, I do think it has to be all in no balance, because there are so many killers that are fighting for your spot from all over the world, and there are guys that are training harder than you can imagine, and live crazier than you can imagine, trying to get there. And if you’re not willing to do it, they will, and you do need that to get you to a certain point, but at a point, the stress kills you. You can’t sleep at night like you have nothing else in your life. And the way I outlined this in a different podcast I did, was when you’re 1415, years old, you start to realize you could be good at the sport. And you realize as you get better at it’s like, hey, the more stuff I cut out of my life, the better cyclist I’ll be. I don’t drink, I don’t party, I go to bed on time, I don’t do these other sports. I just focus on my training. And that works. You get better, better, better. But what happens is, when you start doing that, when you’re 1415, years old, you do that for your whole career. You get close to 30, and you have the real world skills of a 14 or a 15 year old kid, because that’s when you checked out of the real world. And it’s like a hammer that hits you at some point when cycling suddenly not going well. Because your whole career, as long as you’re performing on the bike, everybody says you’re successful, you’re great, you’re like, you’re the guy getting up at four in the morning to go training like, what a driven and motivated guy. It’s like nothing but applause. And everybody’s saying you’re doing the right thing. And as soon as you’re not doing well on the bike. Suddenly, you’re the 30 year old guy who has nothing else, who, just like you, got nothing. As soon as that bubble pops. Now you’ve realized all your self worth has come from biking. Okay, what is the advice I would give to younger me? Is you just tinker with other things your whole career, like my whole life. Everybody always told me, I need to have more balance in my life. I can’t be all about cycling, you know, do other things. I would listen to the advice, but I’m like, dude, all I want to be as a pro. There’s nothing else I want to do, like all these other things you’re telling me I should try doing. I don’t enjoy that stuff, and it just takes away from the bike for me, but I was always tinkering with little things. And for me, it was reading. And I started reading because I read a book about productivity that I thought would help me with cycling, and that led to psychology, and psychology led to business through that process, because I started just trying to become a better cyclist. I enjoyed reading, and then I would read more and more and more, and that led to writing, and it became all this other stuff, but it was me tinkering with little things, trying to find something else I could be good at. Because everybody always asked me, What’s your plan B? I’m like, I don’t have a plan B. It’s this or nothing. And it’s like, okay, now it looks great, but I only sort of figured that thing out by the time I was, I don’t know, 2827 years old, I started to figure out, like, what else I could be good at. But I started looking for that when I was, like, 1415, years old, because I felt like the idiot who only knew how to ride his bike, and everybody else knows what they would do if they’re not a pro cyclist. And if someone asked me, like, what would you be if you’re not a pro cyclist, I’d be like, I’d be trying to be a pro cyclist. What
Trevor Connor 59:57
really came to mind for me, I’m actually kind of glad. You said this. We did a potluck episode a few episodes ago where we talked about, should you live a balanced or an unbalanced life? And for whatever it’s worth, I was used as the example of living an unbalanced life, which is probably fair, but when I listened to the episode afterwards, I realized it was a bunch of 50 year olds who are at a very different stage giving the advice of saying, Well, of course, you should live a balanced life. And I thought about, what about all those 20 year olds that are trying to make a career, whether it’s cycling or something else? Are we giving them the best advice? And I love that you just kind of gave the answer I wish we had given on that episode.
Jack Burke 1:00:36
And to make it even more concise, the advice I would give if you want to make it as a pro cyclist, be 100% focused on that. Plan A, make it work. Do whatever it takes to make it work. And don’t think about a plan B, because if you think about a plan B, you probably won’t make plan a work. But as an athlete, you have a lot of downtime in between that. And the advice I would give is, for me, I set the goal 45 minutes a day. That’s what it started as, to learn about something that has nothing to do with bikes. Just start. You don’t even have to be interested in it, like just start learning about something, and you will find something you like, but you have to be learning about something that has nothing to do with your performance. And for me, it started because I felt like such an idiot, because I was failing at everything. When I came to Europe, I was getting killed in the races. I was trying as hard as I could. I hated living here. I was so depressed. And I was like, Okay, if I read a book for 45 minutes a day, at least, I achieved something today, because I just felt like I’d finished my career being stupid if I just spent all this time watching Netflix all the time, so like, okay, 45 minutes a day reading a book. That’s what it started for me. So I could write in my journal at the end of the day, that that’s something I achieved. Then if I failed at everything on the bike that day, at least I did that, and that is what led to everything else. But I do think you should invest the time in learning, because you don’t have time to pick up other hobbies or take courses or, I mean, some guys can go to school and stuff. For me, that was always too much. And I really felt like it was taking away from the bike. So for me, it was 45 minutes a day, learning, and that meant reading, not watching YouTube and stuff like that, actually reading a book.
Trevor Connor 1:01:55
Fantastic advice. I hate to say we have to close this one out. You know, we normally finish with take homes. Do you have anything beyond that? I feel like you just gave a fantastic take home. So should we say that was yours? Or do you have any other last wisdom you want to share with our listeners and any up and coming cyclists who are going through some of what you’ve gone through?
Jack Burke 1:02:16
Can you give me a more specific avatar of like, who I’m giving advice to? Well, so
Trevor Connor 1:02:20
actually, here for your take home. That’s the first time I’ve ever done this. I am gonna guide you. You sent us an email for this episode with some of your thoughts, and there was something I absolutely loved, which I was hoping to kind of end out the episode with, which was you said, enjoy it enough to never stop living like an athlete. What did you mean by that? Okay,
Jack Burke 1:02:38
so here’s the thing, when people just hear it’s like, oh, he only started training in May, and look, he’s flying by the end of the year. Okay, that’s not the whole picture. I was, let’s call it, retired for 18 months, but I still lived like an athlete in a lot of ways. So I was training, I don’t know, eight to 12 hours a week, and it wasn’t training. It was exercise for me, because I just needed to give my brain a break. I was not doing it was just like a three hour spin in the middle of the day to clear my head. But I still, I kept all the good habits of an athlete. I still did the right things around sleep. Okay, I was not sleeping nearly enough because I was working a lot there, but, like, I did my best to get good sleep. Like, a lot of the habits stuck. I didn’t fall off the rails and gain 10 kilos. Like, okay, I wasn’t in shape because I wasn’t training as much, but I didn’t like, I stayed at a good enough level that I could get once I started training again, I wasn’t starting from rock rock bottom, because I just enjoy living like an athlete, and that is how and it’s a nice thing to look back on, because it’s like, well, that’s how I’m going to live for the rest of my life. I just enjoy doing that stuff. And the way I wrote it in my book, it’s like, you know better. Don’t be a jack. Don’t do the dumb you’ve lived your whole life dedicated to health and being like an athlete. As soon as there isn’t a race or a goal on the horizon, you need to learn to love just playing the game even when no one’s keeping score. Like, just keep doing the same stuff, because everything else is better. Like, I function better working at my computer when I’m healthy, with everything else that I used to do for my performance on the bike.
Chris Case 1:03:53
Good advice, I think my take home, I don’t know if it even comes from this episode, honestly, it’s just I really enjoy, and I think it’s so beneficial for amateurs out there to have a little project to work on, to find that segment that they can make their own, to use it as an objective. I will set a goal. I will give myself X number of months. I will optimize this and optimize that. And if they’re not into racing so much, they can still use this as a competitive outlet. Use this as an opportunity to refine themselves. Use this as an opportunity to lean into that athlete lifestyle. I know that this was almost on a whim for you jack, but I think that Strava can be used as a really great motivational tool for people to set a goal. Can be a tiny little hill in their neighborhood that they just want to do X number of minutes faster, or something like that. And I love little projects like that. I think that helps people remain motivated, stay athletic, have the right mindset and improve. So
Trevor Connor 1:04:56
my take home is almost kind of a suggestion to you, Jack, but. Is also something I’ve never done in the take homes, but I love through this episode, you were talking about the enjoyment side, because I think that is absolutely critical. And I do think no matter how focused, how dedicated you are, when you lose the enjoyment, you get yourself in trouble. So, you know, my bit of advice, we talked about this a little bit off Mike, you know, I spent years living up in Canada, trying to go pro, trying to get opportunities, and didn’t get them. And then all of a sudden, when I was 40 and had already retired, I started getting my contract offers, and I didn’t take any of them, but I just went, you know what? I’m content I got the offers at 40. I don’t want to go pro, and was just content with that, and content to move on with that. So you were talking about the pressure you’re now getting. I truly hope you get the offer. I truly hope you go World Tour, because I think you are one of the most underrated cyclists out there. But whether you do or not, you know, my advice to you is, don’t stop enjoying it and be content with what you do, whether anybody sees it or not. That’s the most important thing,
Jack Burke 1:05:56
totally. And to be clear, it’s like, I’m so proud of what I did this year. I make it sound like, oh, this wasn’t that serious. And what? Like, I’m very proud of it. If someone goes and breaks all my records tomorrow on those kms, it’s like, I don’t care, like, Great job to them. But like, for the rest of my life, I can say it’s like, at some point I had the record of, like, the three most famous climbs in cycling. That’s pretty cool. Like, I will have that for the rest of my life, and I’m very proud of that as
Trevor Connor 1:06:18
it should as you should be. Yes, yeah, thanks. Well, Jack Always a pleasure. Anybody who’s listening and been really enjoying this, because Jack’s given a lot of great wisdom. He has written two books, Jack, where can they find them? So it’s the same book
Jack Burke 1:06:30
I just written, this second edition of it, but how to become a pro cyclist, and the only place to get it is at how to become a pro cyclist.com. But I published that book because I just wanted to give a guide to younger me. As far as like, I wanted to put all the advice into one guide. And the starting point was, coaching is expensive, and having great mentors comes down to luck. And I got very lucky in my career to have access to great mentors. So I just wanted to try to put all the information I could think of in a one giant textbook to give to younger me who might not have the same lucky opportunities for mentors and coaching. It’s like, okay, here, this is everything I know all in one book. Take that, and then it blew up into more than I ever imagined before. And that’s kind of what kicked off everything I do now. Yeah, when
Trevor Connor 1:07:07
we had you on the last time you sent me, the book was 200 pages, I went, I’ve got time to read about 30 pages of this. And then ended up reading the whole book. It is a great read. I recommend it to everybody. It’s like
Jack Burke 1:07:18
800 pages the second edition, it’s like, 800 pages down the PDF thing and, but that’s the thing. It’s like, I can’t believe it. Somebody one of the other podcasts I went on the other day, he was like, Dude, I read your book in like, three days. And I’m like, I get that so much. I’m like, What’s wrong with you guys? How do you read a book that big in three days? Like, I don’t get it. I’m like, I’m glad. Like, cool. Glad you like the stories. It was
Trevor Connor 1:07:38
a fun read. I’m glad. Well, Jack pleasure, thanks for coming on the show. Thanks guys. All right, before we close things up, we have a question for the forum. Tell us about the experience you had going for a hill climb record or a PR that was another episode of fast talk. The thoughts and opinions expressed on fast talk are those of the individual subscribe to fast talk wherever you prefer to find your favorite podcasts, be sure to leave us a radiant review. As always, we love your feedback. Tweet us at fast talk labs. Join the conversation that forms at fast talk lab.com or learn from our experts at fast talk labs.com for Jack Burke and Chris case, I’m Trevor Connor. Thanks for listening. You.
