Why is nutrition so controversial? First, it’s very personal: Many people, trained or untrained, have strong opinions on the subject, and a lot of heated debate revolves around what is healthy and what is best for performance.
We’ve had a few prominent guests on Fast Talk previously, and they’ve given their opinions on the subject. But thus far we have strayed away from revealing our thoughts—until now.
In this podcast, we’ll discuss what we think is healthy and what isn’t. We’ll talk about what foods to eat, we’ll take on the question of wheat, nutrient density, and sugar.
Unlike other episodes, in this show Coach Trevor Connor will not only be the co-host, he’ll also be the guest of honor. His research in graduate school focused on many of these topics, and what he’ll share are his educated opinions.
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Episode Transcript
Caley Fretz 00:00
Welcome to Fast Talk. The VeloNews podcast, everything you need to know to ride.
Chris Case 00:11
Hello, and welcome to another episode of Fast Talk. I’m the Velonews managing editor Chris ase, joined as always by the lovely, talented Coach Trevor Connor. Today, we’re taking on a controversial subject, nutrition. Why is it so controversial? Because it is just so very personal. There’s a lot of opinions on the subject, a lot of heated debate. There’s even the occasional mudslinging around the subject. Everyone seems to have a strong opinion about what’s healthy. We’ve had a few prominent guests on the podcast, and they’ve given their take. But thus far, Trevor has strayed away from it. And you’ve noticed several of you out there have asked Trevor to give his take on nutrition. So after much begging and pleading on my part, and knowing that there will be some angry listeners out there some few a few strongly worded emails, I’ve convinced Trevor to give his honest opinion on nutrition. Not gonna lie. It was pretty fun trying to get him to come on here and do this. And I like to see Trevor squirm. Today we’ll discuss what Trevor thinks is healthy and what isn’t. We’ll talk about what foods to eat. We’ll talk about the question of wheat nutrient density. And Trevor really wants to correct a few impressions he may have given in the past about sugar. As many listeners out there might know, Trevor has a small fetish for Swedish Fish. And we’ll get into that our format will be a little different today, as well as being my co-host. Trevor’s going to be the guest of honor. He just wants all of you to keep in mind that he’ll be sharing his beliefs and opinions. The hope being that over the course of the podcast, you’ll come to see them as highly educated opinions, but opinions nonetheless. With that, let’s dive into the snake pit. Let’s make a few of you angry. And of course, let’s make you fast.
Chris Case 02:24
Hey, Trevor, I heard you ride a bike. Is that true?
Trevor Connor 02:28
Sometimes, maybe.
Chris Case 02:30
Do you ever go for runs?
Trevor Connor 02:32
Yes. And they are painfully slow.
Chris Case 02:34
I bet they are. I can only imagine. Do you ever swim?
Trevor Connor 02:39
No. No, I actually did a triathlon a few years ago, I discovered I was faster walking along the bottom of the pool than swimming.
Chris Case 02:46
What about sinking? Do you- do you ever sink?
Trevor Connor 02:49
That was part of walking on the bottom of the pool now was it?
Chris Case 02:52
There you go? Hey, well, it doesn’t matter whether you’re a runner, a cyclist, a swimmer, a triathlete. You want to head over to Health IQ is the website. They’re a life insurance company that specializes in healthy, active people like you. They’re able to give us favorable quotes on life insurance. And they have a special website just for Fast Talk listeners. That’s www.healthiq.com/Fast Talk. While you’re over there, you can submit race results screengrabs of your Strava or map my run account or any other proof you have that you are indeed a regular cyclist runner or fit person and you’ll get a better quote. It’s pretty awesome.
Trevor Connor 03:35
Yeah, except I think if I put my runs or my swims up there, they’d be like this guy’s on his deathbed.
Chris Case 03:41
Just put the cycling results up there that I can do.
Chris Case 03:48
So, Trevor, it’s taken a while for us to get to this point where you wanted to discuss diet nutrition. Why has it taken so long and what’s motivated you to get to this point now?
Trevor Connor 04:00
Yeah, I have actually avoided this like the plague and I didn’t get a ton of sleep last night knowing that we’re going to record this one today because I still feel like I should be avoiding this. And certainly not looking forward to probably a bunch of responses that we’re gonna get are poor Spencer’s gonna get through the email. But what the hell let’s go into this. What convinced me was we did an episode a while back where we talked about sports nutrition products. I know a lot of people really enjoyed that one where we dumped a bunch of gels and drink mixes on a table and I was quite grouchy and gave my opinion on a few of them. And that’s might be why we don’t have any advertising on this episode, possibly right now. But that’s fine. We’re gonna give you our honest opinion. However, I got a bunch of people email me after that episode saying, hey, that’s great. I love sugar and you’re telling me sugar is good for me and I had to kind of go no, that’s not what I meant.
Chris Case 04:55
Not quite not quite
Trevor Connor 04:57
So, I feel like I need to do an episode where first I say, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to say that. And I’ll explain what I meant. And then just we’ve had listeners who have heard me say, on our new episodes, we’ve covered nutrition that I don’t want to give my bias, they’ve emailed us and said, “Well, why we will actually want to hear your opinion.” And I think moving ahead, we’re gonna do anything on nutrition, and I’m going to talk about nutrition is important, you know, my background, because I do have a lot of background, and I wear multiple hats. I do also have a job in the nutrition world, that you know where I’m coming from.
Chris Case 05:35
So tell us a little bit more about this sugar controversy?
The Sugar Controversy
Trevor Connor 05:39
Well, the sugar controversy was me not explaining myself very well. But it certainly leads to a sugar controversy. So just to make this clear, I did talk about sugar. And I talked about my love of Swedish Fish, which I do race with. And what I said in that podcast is that a lot of these products, these gels, these blocks, those sorts of things, they’re just candy with better marketing. And I will stand by that. And I will say when you are out racing, when you are training really hard, you need those simple sugars. But want to make this clear that that is a performance ride thing. Don’t misconstrue that as I am saying sugar is healthy for you. And how your body processes it, when you are training, is very different from how your body processes it. When you are sedentary when you are sitting around and outside of your ride sugar is very bad for you. And just to emphasize this, actually wrote an article on sugar or a couple studies on sugar back in the summer, where they actually linked, sweetened drink consumption. So your juices and know these fruit juices and concentrated drinks you have in the morning, they aren’t very different from drinking Coca Cola with breakfast. Sorry about that, but kind of the case. So they were looking at pop, they were looking at Orange juice, apple juice, that sort of thing. And found a very strong association between drinking those beverages or getting a lot of simple sugars, and dementia and Alzheimer’s disease. So that one study found that association the other study looked at brain aging, so shrinking of the brain and found that higher sugar consumption was associated with more rapid brain aging. These are not good things. Another fascinating and look, I’m not a conspiracy theory person at all. But absolutely fascinating study that came out about a year ago, that was published in JAMA, which is a highly respected peer-reviewed journal. These researchers went through the communications of the Sugar Research Foundation, which is basically the sugar industry-
Chris Case 07:54
lobbying industry. Yeah, sugar lobby.
Trevor Connor 07:57
And they went through the communications back in the 60s and 70s. Because there was a lot of research coming out in the 50s, showing a high court association between sugar and heart disease. And so I’m going to read for you just a couple quick lines out of the abstract, said we examined sugar Research Foundation, SRF internal documents, historical reports, and statements relevant to early debates about the dietary causes of CHD which is heart disease, and assembled findings chronologically into a narrative case study. They go on to talk about research that they funded that tried to link fat to heart disease, said the SRS funding and role was not disclosed. However, together with recent analysis of sugar industry documents are finding suggests the industry-sponsored a research program in the 1960s and 1970s. That successfully cast doubt about the hazards of sucrose, while promoting fat is the dietary culprit in heart disease. The person who led the studies was later hired to come up with the original dietary guidelines in the 1980s the guidelines that said fat is bad for you high carbohydrate diets.
Chris Case 09:09
So though you might not believe in conspiracies, this involves politics, money, large industry and-and the conclusion is, the message was not the correct message.
Trevor Connor 09:24
No, and there is a lot of research coming out now showing high correlations between sugar consumption and heart disease, Alzheimer’s disease, cancer. The sugar is not good for us when you’re out riding your bike. Great for performance as a dietary lifestyle. So and look, I’m a sugar fanatic. I love my Swedish Fish. I just eat them on a ride. It is not good for you.
Chris Case 09:48
Yeah, this is not Trevor’s attempt to give you a free license to eat Swedish Fish with every meal or cake or cookies or anything like that. It’s a performance-oriented, simple sugar consumption while riding while training.
Trevor Connor 10:08
Yeah, and sorry to all those of you who are loving me, because I gave you maybe made it sound like this was this was healthy for you. So there’s my disclaimer, I apologize. Let’s talk about nutrition.
How Trevor Developed his Background in The Paleo Diet
Chris Case 10:19
So let’s jump into that another controversial subject, which is nutrition, you have a background in the Paleo Diet with a lot of misconceptions surrounding that particular diet. Tell us a little bit about your background, your thesis, the study of why you have this bias so that we can later talk about performance and nutrition on the bike.
Trevor Connor 10:44
So I’ve been studying nutrition for a long time, and I probably had about 10 years of studying traditional sports nutrition. And then when I did my masters in my late 30s, as I felt I was finishing up my cycling career, I took a class with Dr. Loren Cordain, who is the originator of the Paleo Diet. And I actually really didn’t know anything about it at the time. And so sat in this class, I’d like to say with an open mind, but the truth was, I sat there and just fumed. Thought this guy is full of it, because he was contradicting a lot of what I had learned over the last 10 years. So I was just basically angry with the class.
Chris Case 11:23
I don’t think your reaction is much different from a lot of people who first approach the Paleo Diet.
Trevor Connor 11:28
Absolutely. And this is, you know, this is one of the reasons I have avoided giving my my take on nutrition because I am right now, there are many controversies in nutrition. But I would say that one of the biggest ones right now is the Paleo diet. And I don’t want to, I kind of want to keep that fight separate from this. But like, if I’m going to talk about nutrition, you need to know my bias. And I’ll give you an right now I’m explaining why I have this bias. So after I finished the class, I was so angry about the class, I took it in the spring, I spent the summer trying to prove them wrong. So as I was trying to prove them wrong, I was reading the research about these various topics. And as I go through the research it well actually, that kind of makes sense. I can’t really find a hole there. So I look for another potential hole. And I’d read the research and kind of make sense there as well. While I’m doing all this, I wasn’t really aware of it. But I was slowly actually modifying my diet as I went, well, that makes sense. So let’s modify my diet. And did that all through the summer in the fall to where by New Year’s I was pretty much on the Paleo Diet. I was 38 at the time. I had accepted that I’m back in school, I have a coaching business, there’s no way I can train at the level I used to be able to train. And I was having problems in my last years when I was racing full time where I was getting sick a lot and I probably get 6-7 times a year. And these bugs would last several weeks. So it was really hurting my performance. Well, all of a sudden, I’m not getting sick anymore. I’m able to train just as hard as I used to train, even though I’m working 60 plus hours a week, and I’m recovering better. So I started ramping up my training and that year, Canadian nationals was actually on my birthday. So the day I turned 39 at Canadian nationals I was broken away from the field right at the end of the race in third place. Got caught, unfortunately, just a couple 100 meters certain lines. So everybody sprinted around me I think I finished 20th but it was one of my best performances ever Canadian nationals at 39. Next year, was actually one of my at the age of 40 of my best years ever on the bike. I think at one point I was ranked top 20 in America, I was getting podiums at NRC Caliber Races. And that was all the diet. Was not any difference in my training that was diet. During this I got to know Dr. Cordain. And Dr. Cordain. It’s funny one of the criticisms of the Paleo Diet is it’s not scientific. He is the purest scientist I have ever met to the point that with the website, when I edit his articles, he writes them as a scientific submission. He wrote a book called The Paleo Diet and they actually the publishers had to say, “Make him rewrite the entire book.” They went, “This is a scientific journal. This is not a book.” And basically he was a runner. He was a competitive runner up in Fort Collins, and decided he wanted to figure out how to improve his running by eating better, and spent 10 years just reading all the research and after reading all the research, you just said this is what makes sense. That’s how he came to this conclusion. He had no bias. He just wanted to be a better runner. It was also interested in that so Joe Friel, who wrote one of the most popular cycling training books a cyclist training Bible. He had a similar experience to me when he and Dr. Cordain both lived in Fort Collins and knew one another because they were both runners. Dr. Cordain challenged him to try the Paleo Diet and he had the same experience stop getting sick as much as training got better. So actually, he and Dr. Cordain wrote a book called The Paleo Diet for Athletes.
Chris Case 15:23
Because there are so many misconceptions about this diet, let’s get your definitive definition of what the Paleo Diet actually is.
What Is The Paleo Diet?
Trevor Connor 15:34
Yeah, I love this question, because people come to me with just all these great misconceptions. And then when I tell them what the diet is, or like, I wasn’t what I was told. So what it is, is really simple. At its basic level, it’s eat lots of healthy vegetables, fruits, lean meats, fish, and some nuts. Which is not too far off what you were taught in kindergarten. Which is why I always find it funny that it’s such a controversial diet. Can you say that to people like, well, that’s not a crazy diet. It’s pretty simple. The reason people take issues with it is we do say that you should not be consuming simple sugars, you should not be eating grains. You should not be eating dairy, or at least adults should not be eating dairy. And we will say also we always tell everybody 85% I love pizza. I have my pizza every once in a while right? Got to I think anybody who is overly religious about diet, it goes bad places. So this is general this does not never touch this stuff again, right? I certainly don’t follow that rule.
Chris Case 16:42
And I can attest to your what do you give them a name these like rewards for good behavior, you will break your streak and you’ll reward yourself with something that actually doesn’t fit with a Paleo Diet, but you crave.
Trevor Connor 16:57
Chris went to a movie with me and I think he was watching me wolf down this giant thing of popcorn when he was watching the movie.
Chris Case 17:02
It was it was disgusting. It was it was it was gross.
Trevor Connor 17:08
When I came on board with Dr. Cordain. To do my thesis I told him I have one addendum here if you tell me I can’t get popcorn I’m out.
Chris Case 17:18
Well, you took that to heart, didn’t you?
Trevor Connor 17:20
I don’t have a lot. What-
Chris Case 17:23
When you do you you go big. You go big.
Trevor Connor 17:26
As I always say, if you’re gonna kill yourself, don’t use a small rope to kill yourself.
Chris Case 17:35
Excellent advice, Trevor.
Trevor Connor 17:36
The idea or the philosophy behind this is we should be eating what our bodies evolved to eat. And one thing I have learned after years and years of studying physiology is our bodies are amazingly sophisticated. We have not created machines anywhere close to the sophistication of the human body. And they are actually our bodies are really good at figuring out what’s best for them. And so they figured out how to take advantage of the foods that were available then. Our last major evolutionary change was 10,000 years ago. Last couple changes were blue-haired. Blonde is our blond hair, blue eyes. And what’s called adult lactase persistence, we really haven’t had much change since then. Our diet has changed dramatically, especially in the last 200 years. And a big part of what we eat in a Western diet did not exist 10,000 plus years ago. So basically what we’re saying what the diet is, our bodies haven’t caught up. And this is causing a lot of disease-causing a lot of problems, which again, most people in the nutrition community would not argue that the Western diet is unhealthy for you. So what we’re saying is, we should be eating something that approximates what we used to eat kind of simple concepts. But like you said, it’s very controversial.
Misconceptions on Carbohydrates
Chris Case 18:54
Yeah, there still are a number of controversies. Two big ones, I think is that the misconception is you’ll just eat meat, and you can’t ever have carbohydrates. And when When most people think of carbohydrates, they of course, think of bread products, grains, but those are truly misconceptions. Correct?
Trevor Connor 19:12
Yes. And I will tell you, a lot of what I do in the Paleo Diet world now is really just addressing misconceptions. It used to be different but now especially because it’s the community has grown huge. And there are lots and lots of people out there who say they are part of the Paleo Diet community and are pushing a diet that has absolutely nothing to do with the Paleo Diet. And you are you are spot on with those controversies. The one that’s a big misconception about carbohydrates. People seem to use carbohydrates to be synonymous with bread. In grant and past and grain products. Even people who don’t believe in the Paleo Diet or nutritionists as a don’t believe in the Paleo Diet will tell you there are many other good sources of carbohydrates in there. Better sources of carbohydrates, fruits and vegetables. If you want to simplify foods where you say meat is a protein bread is a carbohydrate, fruit and vegetables have carbohydrates. And I don’t think it’s very controversial to say those are better sources of carbohydrates than bread.
Chris Case 20:15
Why?
Trevor Connor 20:18
For two reasons one is bread is a very simple carbohydrates. So we’re talking about sugar being unhealthy for you. One of the reasons is it causes a big spike in your insulin. So we have this glycemic index, which is basically a measure of how a food affects your blood sugar and your insulin levels. And the standard is glucose so that that gets a score of 100 bread. So simple white bread also gets a score of 100. Eating white bread is really no some no different from eating straight sugar.
Chris Case 20:51
Certainly, there are better types of bread out there. There are new types, not new types of grain, but there’s a resurgence of an interest in using more whole grains obviously, reads of grain that are more nutrient dense. And so there’s a spectrum of good of good and bad when it comes to bread.
Trevor Connor 21:12
There is and why don’t we hold off on that because we will talk a little bit about my thesis, which was entirely about wheat.
Chris Case 21:18
Okay.
Trevor Connor 21:19
But the the other answer I will give to this is, grain products are very low nutrient density. Fruits and vegetables and fruits are very high nutrient density. So on top of not having quite the same glycemic index effect not having some of those negative effects. You’re also getting a lot more nutrients with them. The other controversy was a misconception is Paleo Diet is all protein or all meat which is is ridiculous. As a matter of fact, one of the first papers that Dr. Cordain published, talked about the ceilin on protein, we can only get about 35% of our diet from protein, or about 200 grams per day. Above that you you get what’s called rabbit starvation which will kill you.
Chris Case 22:03
Rabbit.
Trevor Connor 22:04
Rabbit
Chris Case 22:05
Rabbit
Trevor Connor 22:05
It comes from early explorers who were desperate for food and literally ate nothing but rabbit and and they emaciated and died.
Chris Case 22:17
This was up in Canada?
Trevor Connor 22:19
Probably. So no. The Paleo Diet is not all meat it is not all protein. And that’s a misconception. As a matter of fact, by volume. If you are eating a healthy paleo diet, you are eating a lot more vegetables than you are eating meat. And you are getting carbohydrates a no carbohydrate diet is what’s called a ketogenic diet. There are there are some interesting research about it. It has huge anti cancer properties. But I’m not personally sold on it as a lifestyle. And they can come in here and I’ll gladly have this conversation with them but I will bet a lot of money that Team Sky is not on a ketogenic diet nor ever was on a ketogenic diet.
Chris Case 23:02
They claim to be they claimed to be but yeah, you’re you’re calling them out.
Trevor Connor 23:06
I’m calling them out in the matter. You know, that last nutrition podcast we did when we had Dr. Holly as a guest, who was one of the top researchers in the world on sports nutrition, even stayed in that podcast. I will get in Team’s Sky, physiologist, I know him. And he will tell you they’re not on a ketogenic diet.
Chris Case 23:23
Shall we circle back a bit and talk more about wheat since that was the topic of your thesis, your master’s thesis?
Trevor Connor 23:31
Yeah. And I’m going to apologize ahead of time, but I started going down some rabbit holes, because this is where I start talking about interleukins and CD 14 and a whole bunch of things that will put you to sleep. So hopefully, Chris will slap me across the head a few times and –
Chris Case 23:44
Gladly, gladly
Trevor’s Research on Wheat
Trevor Connor 23:45
And stop me. But I will say if you are interested, we’ll put up a link on the website. I did write a series of five articles that basically summarized my thesis and what I found in the research about about wheat, but what I was looking at was the effects of wheat and a wheat free diet on chronic disease, particularly autoimmune disease, and had about 80 subjects in my study. We ultimately ended up looking at about eight autoimmune conditions and saw quite dramatic effects in several of these conditions when people went on a wheat free diet. So our diabetics saw significant improvement. We had eight people with Crohn’s disease who all went into remission on a wheat free diet. One of them I loved it, we got all his doctor’s records, and his doctor had in the notes, the patient has decided to try to treat condition with the dietary regimen that I recommended strongly against, very concerned about where this is going to go and kind of continues like that. And then over the next three years, he keeps coming back with with perfect results and he’s going into remission and all the lesions and polyps are disappearing. And at the end of it, doctors like, final final note that we saw was, seems to be doing very well correlates strongly with changes in diet. And that was quite dramatic.
Chris Case 25:17
What was the makeup of these 80 individuals in terms of ethnicity and things like that? I’m just curious if, you know, some people are some genetically predisposed people might be more prone to wheat intolerances and things like that.
Trevor Connor 25:33
Yeah. And that’s, we don’t have question answers about that. Okay. So I can’t tell you one particular race is more prone than another. What I can’t I did a read a lot of the research of a doctor out in Maryland. I’m gonna mispronounce his name, but Alessio Fasano, who was absolutely fascinating, and he started by studying celiac disease, but is now actually studying the effects of wheat on the gut. And he just or not just anymore, about five, six years ago received one of the largest grants ever received in the US to continue his research. And my understanding is right now he is pushing to actually, this might be too strong a term but have this declared a bit of an epidemic. But he has certainly said in his research showing that this is a pathway to multiple conditions. And this is not something just in celiacs, that a large number of the population, actually, at some level or another, have these intolerances that can lead to disease. And for example, there was a study that just came out in 2016. Because again, this is one of those controversial subjects. There’s a lot of people out there that say, there’s absolutely no research, that weed is bad for you. And all these people are gluten free or just crazy hippies that don’t know what they’re talking about. And I will tell you for 10 years, I was one of those people just shaking my head at people on the gluten free diet, I can’t stand them. And now I’m somebody who goes in the store. I don’t really eat wheat products. I’ve spent years researching this, anybody who says there’s no research, I will send you about 300 studies. And I still just kind of cringe I go, I can’t believe I’m saying don’t eat wheat. So there was actually just a study that I wrote an article about this spring that came out in 2016, looking at people who felt they had a wheat intolerance, but didn’t have celiac disease. And so they with the more sophisticated ability to test these people that we now have, they they tested them compared to normal people and found there was a much higher degree of intestinal cell damage. And they definitely saw a much higher degree of immune activation in these people that complained about wheat intolerance. So you know, when they were saying years or just a couple years ago, you don’t have a wheat intolerance. There’s no proof, it doesn’t affect you. It’s all in your head. Well, this is all those people that said it was that they said it’s in their heads. And actually no, there’s something there. Basically, the short of my thesis, and let’s I would love to go down this rabbit hole a little bit. But the short of it is wheat is remarkably effective at causing chronic, inappropriate inflammation in our systems. Why this is important is the research and chronic disease, whether it’s cancer, whether it’s heart disease, autoimmune disease, which is what I focused on, in the last five to six years, has really shifted towards this discovery that it all starts with chronic inflammation. So for example, heart disease, what they discovered is macrophages, which are a key cell in our immune system, basically become a barren. They they just start essentially misfunctioning, and they bury themselves into the cell wall of our blood vessels and accumulate there. And that’s what causes these lesions in our blood vessels. Autoimmune disease, obviously, as the immune system is functioning, and cancer is also showing huge inflammatory process. Like I said, I’ll put the link to my articles if you really want to dig into this. But the the short, short, short version Fasano’s research showed that wheat or particularly gliadin, which is part of gluten in wheat, binds to the the cells in our gut, and they cause a release of something called zonulin. Zonulin then causes the tight junctions of the cells in our gut to open up so that’s very technical. What this means is, all the cells lining in our gut are very tightly packed together so nothing can get by. So that our digestive system can kind of reach out and say, okay, this is food it can come in. This is not food, we’re going to excrete this. You need those tight junctions so that things don’t get into your system. Wheat effects that. It causes this release of gliadin, that breaks down these tight junctions and then things that are in our gut can get into circulation that should not get into circulation. And this is a process that’s not just in celiacs. This is true and everybody, Dr. Cordain had kind of a gross way of describing it. But he basically said, think about having a cut on your arm, taking some feces and rubbing that on your arm. Would that be good for you?
Chris Case 30:32
Probably not, no.
Trevor Connor 30:34
It’s not what you want.
Chris Case 30:36
So tell us a bit more about how the gut is involved in the immune system.
Dr. Fasano: Zonulin and it’s Regulation of Intestinal Barrier Function
Trevor Connor 30:42
So to give you an idea, Dr. Fasano one of his bigger papers was actually titled Zonulin’s and its regulation of intestinal barrier function, the biological door to inflammation, autoimmunity, and cancer. Primarily, your immune system is located around the gut, because you have this gut filled with billions and billions and billions of bacteria. All sorts of things that aren’t good if they get into your body. So your immune system sits there and tries to control this bacteria, for the most part, it keeps it in your gut. Every once in a while when it gains entry, the immune system activates and tries to fight back. This these bacteria are these pathogens that have gained entry and prevent them from causing any sort of systemic inflammation or any sort of issue. So opening up those tight junctions and letting all these things in causes a huge load on your immune system. So I gave a couple terms before and I promised Chris, I won’t give too many terms, but one of them was lipopolysaccharide, LPS. LPS is a marker on bacteria, and not the good bacteria, the gram negative bacteria, the bad bacteria in our digestive tract that we don’t want to get into circulation. So our immune system is highly tuned to it. (mmune cells use what’s called CD-, this marker called CD14, to identify LPS. And when it identifies LPS, it says, okay, bad bacteria is getting into the system, we have a breach, get the immune system going, ramp it up. Let’s start fighting this. Most of the time, you know, bacteria is there’s always a little bit of bacteria getting into the system. Most of the time CD14 is not expressed. So when our immune cells find those bits of bacteria, they go, okay, I’m just gonna kill this not to worry. You have to have a heightened level of bacteria for the cells to start expressing CD14. And when they express CD14, that’s when the immune system goes well, okay, let’s do something. So the reason I’m explaining that is I read a whole bunch of research that shows that wheat has a way of getting I won’t go into the mechanism. Wheat has a way of getting cells to express CD14 when they shouldn’t. So then, you have this kind of combined effect of opening up the tight junctions of the gut, which is letting the LPS and meanwhile you have immune cells now expressing CD14, when they really shouldn’t, that CD14’s binding to the LPS and immune systems going, do something, let’s respond. The primary cell to respond to this immune to this sort of bacterial invasion is something called TH17. T cell part of our adaptive immune system. We don’t really want our bodies expressing TH17 very often because it’s a very destructive cell. Every single autoimmune disease, TH17 is part of the early mechanism. TH17 is associated early on with cancer. It is associated with most of our chronic diseases. And so wheat is remarkably effective at getting our body to have a inappropriate inflammatory response that gets TH17 expressed, we don’t want this.
Chris Case 34:08
So is that the only way that wheat affects inflammation?
How Wheat Effects Inflammation
Trevor Connor 34:13
So they used to they’re in autoimmune disease there was this what was called a molecular mimicry theory that they believe a virus came in mimicked your your body’s own epitopes which is what your immune system identifies with basically mimics your own body. Your immune system responds to that it kills the virus and then it continues to kill anything that looks like the virus, which is unfortunately you weed has this other effect that’s really interesting. It’s a reverse mimicry. We mimics bacterial invasion. And there there’s a purpose of this think about it all. Life wants to be able to protect itself. Animals can do it by fighting off invaders. Some plants do it by having thorns. A lot of your grains do it by having chemicals are properties in them that harm you. So that when you eat one of these grains or one of these plants, you will get very sick, and then say, Okay, I’m not going to eat that, again, if you go on the wheat field and eat raw wheat, it’s going to be really unpleasant experience for you, you’re going to get very sick. Most of this stuff is cooked out, but not all of it. And that is one of the debates, whether it’s cooked out or not. But I can show you a lot of research showing that enough remains. And this stuff is so potent, that it still has these effects, you don’t get really sick, but over a long period of time. That’s why celiacs get sick. And so the ones that we’re talking about, in particular, we are what are called lectins. And that’s and the lectins. And wheat mostly exists in the in the gluten, we also have something in wheat called w j ga wheat germ agglutinin, which is amazingly good at just passing actually right through the cells, it doesn’t need opening up at the tight junctions, it can go right through the cells, it’s a heterodimer, it can bind to 10 different molecules. So it can bring things in with it. And they’ve shown it binds to what’s called the basolateral side of the epithelial cells, that’s the side inside your body not beside facing your gut, and can activate the immune system, the immune cells in your innate system that basically give the signal to the T cells of get in here do something or no, don’t worry, man we got under control are your dendritic cells, they actually have these arms that can reach into your gut and just constantly sample what’s in there. And again, it’s whether they’re expressing cd 14 or not. As I remember, there is something in wheat called amylase trypsin inhibitors at Ise. We have unfortunately bred more and more API’s into wheat because they’re a great insecticide or pesticide. The problem is, they activate the dendritic cells, they tell me they flip that switch and the dendritic cells that say, okay, activate the immune system, get in here, express a cd 14 th 17 get in here, we got to do something. And I have read several studies showing with the consumption of wheat, you see this highly inflammatory profile, you see the expression of t th 17 is the ultimate result. And you see a downregulation of all the things that try to tell the immune system stay local, stay calm. And we’ve seems to have this ability that I haven’t seen in any other grain products, to just so there’s multiple different ways to cause this heightened inflammation. So you need the opening up the tight junctions in the gut, you need this kind of bacterial mimicry you need this ability to upregulate the T seven th 17 down regulate t reg get the innate immune system activated. I’ve seen other foods and lectins that can cause some of these effects. wheats the only one that has all the products to just hit all sides of this elevated inflammation that haven’t seen personally anywhere else. Maybe some other researchers have my focus was on wheat. But after reading this and seeing all the different products that has the W ga the amylase trypsin inhibitors, the the gliadin and the way they can just absolutely just do have
Chris Case 38:28
this effect on the immune system was was quite stunning. So we’ve been eating wheat for a long time. So why are we seeing this problem? Now?
Trevor Connor 38:38
The other thing to remember particularly with wheat is our ability to process wheat on a mass scale didn’t start until there was some big improvements in the stone grinding process. In the I think it was the 1860s so I always say you know the the poor man’s food is bread well actually not really the case you go earlier in history. bread was a bit of a bit of a luxury. And I remember talking to my grandmother when I got on the Paleo Diet she went you’re in that really crazy diet and my Grandma, what did you eat when you were a kid? Well, we didn’t have a lot of money. So we had fruit. We grew our own vegetables. You know, she’d mentioned meat a bit and she’s like, kind of that’s all. So Chris, what do you think is gonna live longer? us are those cat threes over at the velonews podcast.
Chris Case 39:30
Ooh, very good question. I’m hoping it’s me. I’m hoping It’s you It’s definitely gonna be us there cat threes.
Trevor Connor 39:41
there they’re gonna bike in front of the bus or something worried about their weather that we’re in the right clubs.
Chris Case 39:48
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Trevor Connor 40:19
or Fred and Spencer,
Chris Case 40:20
or Fred and Spencer, and get a better quote,
Chris Case 40:31
It begs the question, in my mind, someone who loves bread, loves pizza loves things that are made with wheat products. Am I setting myself up for disaster? I feel fine. What would happen? Well, I assume your answer is to the question, what would happen if I go off of wheat, you would assume or say my performance would improve? I would feel better. But what if I feel fine right now?
Trevor Connor 41:02
So this is one of the arguments people give all the time. And this is, you know, doctors deal with this all the time or somebody comes in a doctor’s office goes, I feel fine. What’s your definition of fine? And do we really feel fine. And I actually just had to write an article responding to Bill Nye the Science Guy who attacked the Paleo Diet saying everybody died at 35. In Paleolithic times, why would we want to eat their diet? That’s completely wrong. Totally wrong. average age of mortality was 35. But that’s because a large number of the population died before the age of two. When you look at the average age of mortality, or you look at the median age of mortality, after with people that survived past the age of two, it’s the same as now. But I started studying some of these reports of hunter-gatherer societies. And you look at how they aged. And it was entirely different from how we age, their 80-year-olds, were still active still hunting, you look at pictures of them, I would be happy in my 40s to look like the 80-year-olds look like and these hunter-gatherer societies are natural aging process, there’s a very strong argument is not a natural aging process, what we think of as fine. It might be what we’ve always felt, but it might not actually be fine. And I said the same thing. And when I hated all these people are going on gluten-free diets, I was sitting there going, Well, I eat tons of it. And I’m in my late 30s. And I’m still racing and pro races. So I’m obviously fine. Yet I was getting sick all the time. And I eventually had to quit. Then I got off of wheat. And suddenly at the age of 40, I’m having one of my best seasons in my life,
Chris Case 42:39
is this is a subject we could talk all day about, I think listeners out there will have a lot of other questions, and I encourage you to send them in. And perhaps we are able to answer them on another podcast in some way. But let’s let’s take a broader view, and help people understand what nutritional advice you would give them based on based on these, these admitted biases of yours. And help people get faster.
Trevor Connor 43:10
Absolutely. And I will say, you know, thanks for bearing with us. If I’m going to talk about nutrition in the future, I wanted to give you my bias and my background, I will put up like I said a link to that series of articles I wrote that explain the processes with wheat in much more detail. I always put up references, I will put up my thesis references. So be prepared, it’s going to be about 150 studies. But yeah, so from this point forward, I’m going to say, obviously, my bias affects my recommendations. But the recommendations I’m going to give about nutrition from this point forward, I’m going to try to go a little broader. This is just simply what I feel that the science says, I’m not going to ever try to push the Paleo Diet on anybody. It will say if anybody ever comes to me and says I want to try it, I’m happy to help.
Chris Case 43:57
Now that we’ve clarified what you mean by sugar in a performance sense versus a lifestyle sense. We’ve gone into paleo diet, we’ve gone into your biases, we’ve gone into your work on wheat and chronic disease. Let’s step back from that and give some broader suggestions to athletes out there looking for nutrition advice, for performance and health. Because there’s a there’s a balance there. I know we’re going to touch upon that balance. There’s a balance that needs to be struck between health and performance. It’s not always been the case. at us years ago, nutrition in athletics was way more skewed towards performance. People are understanding health and performance need to be balanced. So let’s dive into that.
Trevor Connor 44:46
I think you make a really good point there. I mean, I think you talked to any top-level professional cyclists from from 10 years ago. There’ll be the first is a no die wasn’t healthy. I love the story of Tyler Hamilton, who used to For those rides where he would eat nothing, get home be absolutely starving. Take a sleeping pill, so you could sleep through the hunger.
45:09
Right then
Trevor Connor 45:11
nobody’s gonna tell you that’s a healthy approach to living. Why don’t we start with this is one of my biggest he called pet peeves or soapboxes or whatever. But I am a big believer and focus on foods, not ratios. Meaning I think the nutrition world is dramatically over-focused on should we be high carbohydrate, low carbohydrate, high protein, low protein, high fat, low fat, I think that’s a crazy way to talk about diet, because I don’t think that relates to health. And I personally get frustrated with all these sites studies ago, that have titles along those lines of high carbohydrate diet proved to be healthier for x. people all the time to me because I’m associated with the Paleo diet, and they think it’s an all-protein diet. Throw research in my face, saying here, here’s a study showing that a high protein diet is bad for you. And I kind of have a canned response to them. Because most of these studies you look at if you go into the methodology, you discover that all these people on a high protein diet, we’re eating McDonald’s, and hamburgers and crap and hot dogs. So I go, Well, great, kind of thanks for opening my eyes here. You know, you must be right. You know, high protein diets are bad for him. You know, so you’ve all shown me the broccoli is bad for you? No, I didn’t. That’s crazy. I go, well, broccoli is a carbohydrate, right? Well, yeah. Skittles are a carbohydrate, right? Yeah. Well, I’m broccoli is bad for it. Well, that’s crazy. You can’t make a comparison between Skittles and broccoli and ago, we just did the same thing with protein. Because you look at the people in this study, they’re eating McDonald’s, you’re not showing me a study with a healthy protein. Yet, you’re using this study to make assumptions about all proteins. And that’s my point. You can have a high carbohydrate diet that’s based on vegetables and fruit. That’s a healthy diet, you can have a high carbohydrate diet that’s based on Skittles, that’s not a healthy diet. Same thing with protein, same thing with fat. So you need to look at what are the foods that I’m eating? And whenever anybody asked me about the Paleo diet, what is our macronutrient ratios are I go, we don’t have one. We focus it on the foods that you should eat. And you shouldn’t eat and outs even outside of the Paleo diet. I think a lot of nutritionists are going to agree with this, that you should be focusing on the particular foods, not some percentage. I will say I interviewed a critic of her diet. And her criticism of the diet was a Paleo Diet doesn’t have a macronutrient ratio. So you can’t be compared to other diets. That’s my issue with the Paleo diet.
Chris Case 47:49
That’s minor in comparison to other criticisms you could have.
Trevor Connor 47:52
Yeah, but it was interesting. She was so focused on nutrient ratios. She basically said, I can’t understand your diet until you tell me what your nutrient ratio is. But again, to avoid going down that rabbit hole, pay attention to the foods you’re eating, even if you want to eat high carbohydrate. And I do eat a higher carbohydrate diet when I’m training hard and racing hard.
Chris Case 48:13
Not all carbohydrates are created equal. Right.
Trevor Connor 48:16
So what are the carbohydrate sources? And I will tell you, I get mine when I’m on the bike. Yeah, I have my Swedish Fish. I have my sports drinks. When I am off the bike, I am eating a lot of vegetables. I’m eating fruit. The closest thing to candy I will sometimes eat is dried mango. Or sorry dried apricots, not manga.
Chris Case 48:38
what’s what’s your thing with mangoes?
Trevor Connor 48:40
Again, going back to the glycemic index dried mangoes are very high on the list. dried apricots are the lowest on the list of all the dried fruits. Of course, I
Chris Case 48:49
was joking. And you have a good response for that. Trevor, Trevor Trevor, what’s next on our list of suggestions that you have for athletes out there.
Trevor Connor 49:00
So this is probably my biggest one. And frankly, if somebody was going to come to me and said in one minute, give me your dietary advice. It’s going to eat high nutrient density. And I’ve had this theory for a long time, that when people talk about having insanely variable hunger, I have noticed this correlation of those people tend to eat very low nutrient density foods, ie most of the processed foods that you find in supermarkets, I believe that hunger is not an on-off switch, we usually are craving something. And for the most part, we’re really bad at understanding what our body is craving. So you get hungry, your body might be saying I need more B vitamins or I need more x. And all you do is feel hungry. So you go and Wolf down a bag of chips. It’s 1000 calories. Your body goes thanks. I’ll store that as fat but you still didn’t give me what I need. So I’m not turning off the hunger signals. Again, part of my theory is I don’t Like when I hear guys criticize pregnant women for some of their crazy cravings, because I don’t think that crazy women can become very deficient particular nutrients because the child that the growing gets priority. And they’ve actually done studies where they look at these cravings they have like sometimes they want to eat chalk, which sounds crazy. Well, chalk is very high in calcium. So they’re craving something that’s usually very high in a nutrient.
Chris Case 50:24
This goes back to your point that the human body is very, very sophisticated, and, and it’s sending us signals of what it needs. We just need to listen to that
Trevor Connor 50:34
we need to learn how to listen. And I had a personal experience with this where I was doing a training camp. And I was really suffering in this training camp, not hanging on very well. And for some reason, I have a sweet tooth, when I ride, obviously, that’s pretty clear. I didn’t want sugar, we’d stopped at the stores during our rides. And I kid you not start buying beef jerky and turkey jerky, and it couldn’t get enough eggs. And it just seemed very all very strange couldn’t figure it out, talk to one of my nutrition professors about it. And he couldn’t figure it out either until I got cracks at the corners of my mouth. And we looked that up. And I’m probably going to get this wrong, I get all my B vitamins mixed up. But I think that’s a riboflavin deficiency. And sure enough, the foods that I was craving are very high and riboflavin. Interesting. So I have given hundreds of people this advice when they tell me they have a hard time keeping weight down they have a hard time with energy with with the food cravings, I go eat high nutrient density foods. And I don’t think I’ve ever had somebody not come back to me and say it’s amazing. I’m eating less, I’m less hungry.
Chris Case 51:43
Do you have a short list of those foods that are your go to nutrient-dense foods?
Trevor Connor 51:49
So yeah, I remember having this conversation with Dr. cordain, who is a consummate scientist. So he just kind of hold himself up, did an analysis of all the foods out there and came up with a list of what’s most nutrient dense to least nutrient dense foods and broken into categories in order highest nutrient density seafood. second highest veggies though, there is some arguments that you can make the veggies are higher, but those are your two top. Then it goes fruits, lean meats, eggs, legumes, starchy roots, whole milk. Now we are second bottom from the list, whole grains to not even processed grains, whole grains. And then bottom of the list is nuts and seeds. Nuts and seeds actually have some very important nutrients that are hard to get other ways. The problem is we’re talking about nutrient density we’re talking about relative to 100 calories and nuts are very high-calorie food. So they’re still nutrient-poor, relative to the calories.
Chris Case 53:01
I’m sure there are plenty of people out there that are thinking, well, I consume a lot of calories. But yet I’m always hungry, with a more nutrient-dense diet help with that.
Trevor Connor 53:14
If you are giving your body the nutrients it needs, those hunger signals are gonna shut off. I actually find this, I still get amazed by this myself because when I’m eating healthy and nutrient-dense, I’ve never really that hungry. If I let my diet slip, or I’m going and visiting my grandma and you eat whatever your grandma feeds you, which is generally not the healthiest food, all of a sudden, I’m starving all the time, and I’m eating twice as many calories in the day. My belief is people that are consuming huge amounts of foods and saying they’re always hungry. I point back to this, they are generally eating extraordinarily low nutrient density diets, and could help satiate some of that hunger by eating higher quality foods. And I will surely get some people absolutely furious with me for saying that. There’s nothing wrong with being a little bit hungry. In the nutrition world. There is a theory called the thrifty gene hypothesis, which just like everything, there is some controversy, but this one not too much. Which is the idea is until very, very recently, we always lived in a state of low caloric availability, it was very hard for anybody except the wealthiest to eat a lot of food. So our bodies were designed to crave food weren’t really designed to want to stop eating, because when you had food available, you don’t know it could be days before you eat again. So you really want to eat as much as you can. So we are kind of designed to always be a little bit hungry,
Chris Case 54:48
opportunistic, right in that sense.
Trevor Connor 54:50
And I will say eating until you’re full is a mistake. I mean, Thanksgiving, Fine, go for it. Any other time. You should never eat till you’re Because that’s not your body saying I got enough because your body doesn’t really ever want to say I got enough that your body’s saying, whoa, slow down, this is way too much. So eat until you’re satiated, but still a little hungry.
Chris Case 55:15
that’s a that’s a, I think that’s a hard one to explain. It is a feel thing, especially for those people that for years and years and years have eaten until they’re full. And it’s a bat, it’s a habit, they have to back away from a bit.
Trevor Connor 55:29
And it’s tough. It’s tough when you’re not used to it. So whenever I am dropping weight, for performance, so I have a race coming up, there’s a lot of climbing, I want to get my weight down, or I’ve been bad and allowed my weight get a little too high. I go through a week of undereating that is miserable. And you sit there at night just staring at your cabinets going I want food.
Chris Case 55:51
This is not the week just prior to the race. So
Trevor Connor 55:54
Friday, right. But if you can get through that week, I go you go into this mode. And I’ve had a lot of people describe it to me where you actually like that feeling of being a little bit hungry, it almost, for lack of a better word, it just kind of feels healthy, and you don’t want to overeat. And then all of a sudden, taking the weight off as easy. Or getting down to a good healthy weight is easy. Getting below good. Healthy Weight is hard, not something you should do anyway. Right?
Chris Case 56:20
Right. When you’re when you talk about athletes, there’s they’re on bike life, there’s an off-bike life. And those are two different worlds. And I think it goes back to the original topic of sugar. Sugar on the bike is something your body needs for performance, you give it that it responds, that’s a good thing. If you carry that diet over and just eat sugars, Swedish Fish in your case, all day long, very bad thing. So let’s get into that on-bike versus off-bike diet.
Trevor Connor 56:55
So that and we did touch on that previous podcast. And this is a really important thing. Our bodies respond differently to nutrition when we are exercising than they do when we are not exercising. And you really need to make that distinction. And understand it. One of the biggest ones is that insulin response, so we were talking about the glycemic index, the insulin response shuts down when we are exercising, and our cells can actually directly take up sugar without needing insulin. So a lot, not all of the negative side effects of sugar, but a lot of the negative side effects of sugar are essentially shut down when you are exercising. Also, there’s a lot of research showing that exercise you’re burning a lot of calories is a big strain on your body. And if you are under-fueling, when you are exercising, you will fatigue faster, it affects your immune system, it can push you towards burnout, there are a lot of actually negative effects of not consuming those carbohydrates when you’re exercising. So you actually need to get them in. And one of the things I coach my athletes on is when they are having nutrition problems when they are having problems getting their weight down, is you need to eat more when you ride. Because if you don’t, if you under consume, when you ride, your body’s screaming after the ride, because it needs to recover. It’s screaming for fuels. And I get these athletes go, I’m going to under-eat when I ride and I’m going to drop weight, then they get home then they’re starving, and they don’t even see it. And they wolf down 2000 calories. And I’ve actually overeating on that day, right? Where if they keep eating on the ride, you get to the end, the recovery is better, you feel better, and then they don’t over consume, but outside of the ride. And so there’s what’s called the glycaemic window that that shutting down of the insulin response in the your muscle cells ability to really take up the sugars rapidly sticks with you for about an hour after exercise. So obviously, it’s much better five minutes after exercise in an hour. So you still want to get those simple sugars into your system and help refuel the cells right after exercise. Once you’re outside of that hour, that’s when you go back to I’m trying to eat healthy. That’s when you should be avoiding the simple sugars. You know, unfortunately, when Gary Cato came out, everyone well this is great sports drink. So I’m going to drink at the office. I’m going to drink it with dinner. No, drink it when you exercise, great. Don’t drink it other times outside of exercises when you go back to eat vegetables, lots and lots of vegetables, eat some fruit, eat your lean meats. You know if you’re vegetarian, make sure you’re getting your high protein vegetables. I actually really admire people that are vegans or vegetarians when they do it for humanitarian or sustainability reasons. Again, that’s with the human population. That’s the only way that we’re going to sustain the population. But there are health concerns there and one of them is you can’t get b 12 naturally B A vegan, you can’t get the right form of B six, and it’s hard to get enough full aid. So anybody who is doing a vegetarian or especially a vegan diet, you need to be supplementing with those. Because those are the nutrients that you, unfortunately, can generally only get through animal sources. That affects something called our folic acid cycle and the levels of homocysteine in your body, they pretty much thrown out the whole idea that high cholesterol leads to heart disease. But there’s a high correlation of homocysteine with heart disease. And if you’re not getting enough, b 12, and B six and full eight, you’re going to overproduce homocysteine, and it can lead to heart disease, you know, where the highest rates of heart disease are in the world, not the US, it’s India, there are a lot of people who are essentially vegan in India and don’t know to make sure they’re getting their b 12. And their B six. But outside of exercise, that’s when you want to eat a focus on that healthy, nutrient-dense diet, avoiding the simple sugars. And for all those people are saying, well, I need to recover, I need to refuel, there’s been a lot of research coming out showing that all these nutritional strategies for replenishing glycogen and refueling are bogus. There was actually one study where they compared the let’s consider the perfect endurance sports meal for replenishing glycogen, which is the big carbohydrate meal and all that too fast food, and discovered they’re just as good. So not promoting fast food more, what I’m saying is, don’t think I have to have the big pasta for the race tomorrow. If you got sufficient carbohydrates during your ride, just eat healthily, you’re actually going to be in a better place.
Chris Case 1:01:40
Which again, brings us back to that balance that is, thankfully, on the forefront of nutrition these days, which is that balancing health and performance is tricky, but it’s going to be the most effective way to make you the best athlete you can be.
Trevor Connor 1:01:58
Absolutely. I think one of the mistakes that athletes made 1015 years ago was I have to just eat for performance. And I wouldn’t be surprised that that’s part of what drove some of them to doping because they couldn’t keep up with the training because they weren’t fueling themselves. And I do believe there are clean riders now who were performing at least very close to that level that they used to perform it because they are eating better. And I’ve seen the dietary plans of some of the pro tour teams and they are eating much better. And I will tell you, they aren’t having their big pastor parties. Don’t think that these pro tour teams, at the end of every stage of the tour are going and wolfing down two pounds a pastor that’s actually not the case. But at least the teams that I saw,
Chris Case 1:02:39
right? Well, this is a fascinating subject. It’s at times controversial. It’s very, very personal. Everybody has their foods that they love, foods that they won’t give up, even Trevor, with his giant buckets of popcorn every now and again. Please be kind when you send in emails and letters to Trevor, he, again isn’t trying to push this diet his particular persuasions onto you. Hopefully, all of these recommendations are helpful to make you a better athlete. Alright, folks, that was another episode of Fast Talk. As always, we’d love your feedback. Email us at Webb letters at competitive group.com Subscribe to Fast Talk on iTunes, Stitcher, SoundCloud, and Google Play. Be sure to leave us a rating and a comment. While you’re there. Check out our sister podcast the VeloNews podcast, which covers news about the week in cycling. Become a fan of Fast Talk on facebook@facebook.com slash Bella news and on twitter@twitter.com slash VeloNews. Fast Talk is a joint production between VeloNews and Connor coaching the thoughts and opinions expressed on Fast Talk are those of the individual for Trevor Connor. I’m Chris Case. Thanks for listening!
