Daniel Matheny of Matheny Endurance has 20 years of experience in the coaching industry as well as in wellness consulting. He has also worked with CTS and USA Cycling for many years. As an athlete, he has scored two national titles in 24-hour MTB and another title in the marathon event.
With Daniel’s help, we first take on the complex subject of coaching junior athletes, including everything from building aerobic base in a healthy manner to dealing with overbearing parents.
We tackle a very interesting question on the base/intensity relationship from Danielle in Monument, Colorado:
“Does aerobic output after intensity still have the same effect? Or does it have an even bigger effect due to substrate depletion and muscle fiber recruitment change? How does this change how I plan my training rides?”
We also discuss how long aerobic rides need to be, based on a question from Ashley in Sherbrooke, Quebec:
“How long do aerobic rides need to be to get benefits? And does this change throughout the season, or as I improve as a cyclist from season to season?”
Then we turn our attention to this question from Jeff P. on heart arrhythmias:
“Do you know if Whoop can ignore or tolerate or take into account premature ventricular contractions? PVCs are pretty common in the population and I started getting them about two years ago. I do get more PVCs when I have more stress but it doesn’t seem to have a great correlation with exercise—more so with life stress and caffeine intake.”
Finally, we address the potential for cumulative effects of supplements, a question from Dan S.:
“My question is regarding the nutritional effects of the flavonoids in dark chocolates and the nitrates (?) in beetroot. Are the effects of these type of “supplements” cumulative? In other words, if you do them together do you get a greater buffering effect than taking more of either of them in isolation?”
References
Bondonno, C. P., Downey, L. A., Croft, K. D., Scholey, A., Stough, C., Ward, N. C., … Hodgson, J. M. (2014). The acute effect of flavonoid-rich apples and nitrate-rich spinach on cognitive performance and mood in healthy men and women. Journal of Nutrition & Intermediary Metabolism, 1, 46. Retrieved from https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jnim.2014.10.171
Jones, A. M. (2014). Dietary Nitrate Supplementation and Exercise Performance. Sports Medicine, 44(Suppl 1), 35–45. Retrieved from https://doi.org/10.1007/s40279-014-0149-y
Loke, W. M., Hodgson, J. M., Proudfoot, J. M., McKinley, A. J., Puddey, I. B., & Croft, K. D. (2008). Pure dietary flavonoids quercetin and (−)-epicatechin augment nitric oxide products and reduce endothelin-1 acutely in healthy men. The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 88(4), 1018–1025. Retrieved from https://doi.org/10.1093/ajcn/88.4.1018
Martínez-Noguera, F. J., Marín-Pagán, C., Carlos-Vivas, J., & Alcaraz, P. E. (2020). Effects of 8 Weeks of 2S-Hesperidin Supplementation on Performance in Amateur Cyclists. Nutrients, 12(12), 3911. Retrieved from https://doi.org/10.3390/nu12123911
Ranawana, V., Moynihan, E., Campbell, F., Duthie, G., & Raikos, V. (2018). Beetroot improves oxidative stability and functional properties of processed foods: singular and combined effects with chocolate. Journal of Food Science and Technology, 55(7), 2401–2409. Retrieved from https://doi.org/10.1007/s13197-018-3157-3
Episode Transcript
Chris Case 00:12
Hey, everyone, welcome to another episode of Fast Talk, your source for this science of cycling performance.
Chris Case 00:18
Today, a Q&A episode, we’re sitting down with Daniel Matheny of Matheny Endurance, he’s a coach, he is a 24 hour and 12 hour mountain bike champion. He’s an endurance athlete, and he’s got some wisdom that he’d like to share with us today. We’re taking on first a very complex subject: coaching Junior athletes and we’ll be discussing everything from building aerobic base in a healthy manner, to dealing with those overbearing parents out there.
Chris Case 00:47
Oops, did I say that?
Chris Case 00:49
We’ll also take on a very interesting question on the base intensity relationship. We’ll discuss how long aerobic rides need to be to get benefits. And then we’ll turn to a question on heart arrhythmias, and specifically pvcs. How to detect them, if whoop can detect them, and are they a concern?
Chris Case 01:12
Finally, we address the potential for cumulative effects of supplements. Can you have chocolate and beets together to make a super supplement, so to speak? All that and much more today on Fast Talk. Let’s make you fast.
Chris Case 01:33
Hey, Trevor.
Trevor Connor 01:34
Hey, Chris.
Chris Case 01:35
What’s the most interesting topic on the Fast Talk forum right now?
Trevor Connor 01:40
That’s actually pretty tough to say, there’s some really good conversations I’ve been enjoying. Some that frankly, I don’t want to weigh into until I’ve gone and done some research. We got a pretty cool conversation on nasal breathing exercises; does nasal breathing help long term oxygen uptake? We did an episode on breathing and touched on that, but really didn’t get to dive deep. So great to see that happening in the forum. Ryan and I did that 20 minute FTP test and we’re getting a whole bunch of questions about how to read that. And one that I really want to kind of dive into is this new one about being able to detect your aerobic threshold with heart rate variability – that’s the one I need to dig into the research, might even lead to an episode.
Chris Case 02:25
Well, listeners, if you like what you hear, you can join the smartest forum in cycling for free. Starting this week, all members of Fast Talk Laboratories get access to our podcast forum. Sign up now at fasttalklabs.com.
Chris Case 02:43
Daniel, welcome to Fast Talk.
Daniel Matheny 02:45
Thanks for having me on guys.
Who is Daniel Matheny?
Chris Case 02:46
Tell us a little bit about your background. You are the owner of Matheny Edurance, you’ve had 20 plus year career in coaching, what’s been the focus of that time for you as a coach?
Daniel Matheny 03:01
Oh, man, it’s one of those things where I found my path in college and couldn’t see myself doing anything else besides digging into the details of exercise science and nutrition and that kind of stuff. I’ve just been passionate about it this whole time. So kind of made a transition from being a fitness junkie and managing YMCAs and their classes, to help consulting on the wellness side of things for corporate. I ended up moving from the southeast of Nashville out to Colorado and I’ve been out here for about 15 years now working with CTS, USA Cycling, Olympic Training Center. I’ve had some unique experience going overseas with national teams over in Africa and even just some extent doing some long stint coaching with outrigger paddlers even so, just various ways to get involved and stay involved with that.
Daniel Matheny 03:51
Probably the pushing force behind it was being an endurance athlete myself and wanting to understand it. It was a way in college to apply everything personally. So that’s when I got my pro license in college and raced collegiately and then have been doing that since then. Resulted in being a couple time national champ on the mountian bike for 24 hour and marathon and a couple runners up so it’s been on the docket to go back and get that as a Master’s athlete now.
Chris Case 04:15
Nice and it turns out that you and I have a little bit of a history in racing; didn’t realize it at the time when we invited you on the show, but it turns out that we rode together for countless hours out in the Kansas plains in the wind and the heat. I think it was 2013, the race formerly known as DK200. We were in the leading group for six, seven hours together.
Daniel Matheny 04:43
Oh yeah, that was fun. Fun in a sick way I guess. We’re all kind of odd.
Chris Case 04:49
Fun until it wasn’t. Yeah.
Coaching Juniors: Building resiliency and durability
Chris Case 04:50
Let’s get into some questions, shall we? This first question we have pertains to coaching juniors and – not sure how many juniors are out there listening, but I’m sure we have a lot of parents. A lot of parents who want to help their kids participate in endurance sports. So, hopefully this is a very helpful discussion. It’s an interesting topic. It’s a complex topic. I guess you could say even a controversial topic at times. So let me read this question now. And it is a long question, but it gives you the context here:
Chris Case 05:26
“My daughter is 17 years old and a first year Junior. She’s raced competitively since age nine, and has had a fairly successful youth racing career. Her coach, which she began working with over a year ago, wants her to follow an eight week based training where she keeps heart rate low, up to about 170 beats per minute max, and cadence very high. Interval targets are stipulated in heart rate and cadence. There are some variety in the workouts including one with low cadence intervals, but heart rate is always capped. She’s done three rides like this so far, and they are extremely low intensity. For example, her average power is around or slightly below 50% of FTP, with heart rate mostly in the 130 to 170 range so that’s about 60 to 80% of her max. He expects that these rides will help her train her heart, reduce resting pulse, and to transport more co2 per beat, which will eventually help her increase her overall performance. While I understand the concept and believe that endurance rides do have those effects, it throws me off that the rides are that low in terms of power, TSS, and so forth. And not that this metric matters, but just to further illustrate it, whereas she would normally do an easy endurance ride on a city loop with stop signs, etc at 26 to 27 kilometers per hour, she’s now moving 22 to 23 kilometers per hour. So big question here: I’m wondering what your thoughts are on the approach? Will this have a negative impact on her in other areas? Is this not something that will naturally develop on its own as she gets older?”
Chris Case 07:07
So big topic. Daniel, I know you’ve coached a lot of juniors in your time, what would be your initial thoughts here after reading or hearing this question?
Daniel Matheny 07:17
Yeah, I mean, that’s a long question, but the background is necessary. So what is it going to have a negative impact on her in other areas being one part of the question and is it going to naturally develop later on? So the negative impact, I would say no, because from the metabolic and physiological testing I’ve done, even if you go from your resting VO2Max, when everybody’s just sitting around up to4 what’s considered zone two in the five zone model or even zone one from the polarized stuff, you’re getting most of the way up to the working levels that’s necessary to cause the adaptive signal. So the thing is, if he’s noticing, or she’s noticing, that the speeds are low, the power output, and even some of the TSS numbers that she’s noting, it may be that it’s actually more of a necessity than what they even identify.
Daniel Matheny 08:08
Coaching juniors, they’re typically – I relate them to bottle rockets, because they like to fuse and typically go out of the gate pretty hot, and then they fade off. They typically resort to utilizing their anaerobic capacity, and they’re relatively youth VO2Maxes and then they fade off. So if the juniors are seeing these low TSS points and intensity factors, for these heart rate and cadence prescribed rides, it usually means that there may be a deficit there because, typically, with improved aerobic conditioning at that basal level, you can still start seeing a better and better output and speed for even a zone two or a low intensity ride. And so that may be a necessity for her to be working on because of that.
Daniel Matheny 08:53
So I’d say there’s not really a negative impact on other areas, and especially considering the current state of affairs with an unknown race season, possibly like we had last year, I would say it’s better to develop that resiliency and durability as an endurance athlete, and then be able to turn up the specificity when necessary versus burning the fuse and going a little bit deep early on, when it’s not really necessary. So that’s the first part of it.
Chris Case 09:22
Yeah, before you jump into the second part, let’s get thoughts from Ryan and Trevor here. Ryan, do you have some, some thoughts?
Ryan Kohler 09:28
A bottlerocket is a perfect way to describe juniors. They tend to ride hard if they don’t have some kind of control that they’re exerting or they have some kind of guideline. The description in here really does sound like a well thought out approach. I don’t know how long this phase is, but it sounds like this coach is slowing the junior down, teaching them that consistency, and really starting to learn some of the basics of training.
Ryan Kohler 09:55
Can you overdo it? Sure. I mean, you can do this for so long that then you start to feel slow.
Chris Case 10:01
Trevor, I know you have some thoughts.
Trevor Connor 10:03
Well, I do particularly because I know this athlete. I actually worked a little bit with her. So we’ll let this remain anonymous. But certainly when I was working with her, what I saw was exactly what we’re talking about, which was she was all intensity all the time. She was missing that base, aerobic endurance, that sustainability, the repeatability; that part of our engine just really wasn’t there. It was interesting because her father was saying, “well, her intensity factor is around 0.6 to 0.65. with this new protocol,” talked about, “well, she used to ride a 26-27 kilometers an hour, now she’s riding a 22-23.” And says on a city loop, this is in Toronto. I can tell you to average 27 kilometers an hour in Toronto, you’re going hard.
Chris Case 10:53
It’s just all acceleration out of all the stop signs or stoplights.
Trevor Connor 10:57
When I’m doing an easy ride in Toronto, what I would call my base aerobic ride, I’m averaging 22 kilometers an hour, and this is a 17 year old Junior. She should not be going faster than me. So my feedback to him was I fully agree with what your coach is trying to do, she needs to slow down, she needs to do this work. My only feedback is I think his prescriptions too hard.
Daniel Matheny 11:18
I was thinking the same thing, because when I saw up to 80%, that is actually of max heart rate, that is really high. And that doesn’t fall into that zone one as based on percentages of kind of the polarized model. Like that’s well above.
Can you coach male and female athletes differently?
Chris Case 11:32
We could go in a lot of different directions with a discussion about how to properly coach juniors. A couple questions come to my mind, and I don’t know if this is going to bog down the conversation or not, but females versus male Junior athletes: do they develop at different rates such that you can push one or the other group more or less?
Ryan Kohler 11:56
You have to feel them out individually. I’ve been able to work on a lot of the same camps that Daniels worked on through USC, and I think we’ve seen a lot of athletes come through that pathway, some juniors. I think, in general, the female athletes that I’ve worked with over the years that have come through tend to be more ready for structured training, they’re more mature in general. I can say after the rides, I mean they’re kids, they’re gonna have fun. There’s definitely more of a maturity level with the females than I see with most of the males, but there are those male juniors that are at that level to take this on. So I think really just feeling them out individually has been sort of my approach.
Trevor Connor 12:36
Generally, girls go through puberty before boys. There is research and evidence showing that building that aerobic engine, building your endurance, really doesn’t matter until after you go through puberty because it’s just not something you have as a child. So doing big aerobic rides beforehand, doesn’t really matter. Once they’ve gone through puberty, then you can start working on that engine.
Trevor Connor 13:07
My one bit of feedback in juniors is, it is somewhat easy to get a junior athlete to a very competitive level. And there are coaches out there who take advantage of this, particularly on the track. So they love to work with Junior athletes on the track, get them very competitive very quickly because you just do a ton of high intensity work and then they’re really strong. My experience is those athletes tend to burn out. If you’re looking at a longer career, if they want to do this as an adult, that’s not always the best approach. And worse, you see those athletes, as soon as they enter the U23 ranks and go and start racing, more seasoned adults who have been training right, they get destroyed, and it can be very hard on them. So I personally when I work with juniors, don’t take that easy approach to get quick results with them. And really say this is the time to build that engine to build the aerobic side. So you probably get beat by those juniors who are taking the easy approach as a junior, but you’re going to be far more prepared when you get into the actual U23 and then the the elite ranks to be able to handle the race and to be able to be competitive.
Daniel Matheny 14:18
I think you’re right, you’re both spot on. Like it’s one of those things where there’s a quick progression at first, almost like the low hanging fruit, and they’ve got such enthusiasm and they recover so quickly with age that the gains are made relatively quickly. In those years of borderline kind of puberty and stuff like that, they’re still up and coming. Then once they can get those adaptive signals from the aerobic work, then they can start benefiting, but a lot of times they just want to go fast. And if they skip that phase, like in this example, then there’s a -the way I understand the metabolism – that if you’re not aerobically fit, then the high intensity work won’t cycle back through the energy systems to process the lactate as it’s being produced as a fuel source and those kinds of things. So the rate limiting factor is their aerobic functioning, not necessarily their high end functioning. So if they skip that, then they’re going to miss one of the phases of recovering. I’ve seen that as well. Basically people get really fast, but then they haven’t done the correct fundamental work. And then they just kind of feel like they’re beating their head against a wall.
Trevor Connor 15:25
One other thing that I just want to mention, there was a part of this email that Chris cut out, but I think it’s relevant to what we’re talking about. The initial reason this email was sent is because this athlete, she’s 17, and she started to have back problems. And that’s what happens. This is a bit of an extreme case of an athlete who is doing a ton of high intensity all the time, hasn’t built her stamina, hasn’t built her endurance, she isn’t doing much off the bike work. And you’re seeing her at 17 starting to have issues that you would normally see in a Master’s athlete. And that’s a sign of there being an imbalance here and the dangers of just the all intensity all the time.
Chris Case 16:11
I wanted to simplify this to kind of open the door for a more general discussion, and I want to open a can of worms, maybe.
Daniel Matheny 16:17
I think it’s actually important. I was part of a bone density study personally as a mountain biker that I referred athletes to it. And this is when Ryan and I worked at CTS. And they were like, “Oh, yeah, we’ll test you in this thing, because you’re not gonna qualify because you ride mountain bikes, you strength train, you lift, you run” – all this stuff. I actually qualified on the spectrum of bone density, even as a 20 something year old at the time. I think that’s important, because going back to Ryan’s point, and Trevor’s point, is the kind of development of a general youth athlete that has a bandwidth of capabilities as an athlete, but not as a specific cyclist. So this person being 17, they’re on the verge where, yes, they need to start specifying, but I would question what she’s done before this to prepare herself as a general athlete. If you specialize too early, then you actually don’t have all the other planes of movement, and just general sport fitness. And this may open a can of worms too, but it sounds like the father is pushing for this and wants her to excel as a cyclist – and if that’s been the case, in the previous years, and she hasn’t developed just general athletic ability, and then goes into cycling, she’s going to be going like, Trevor said, as a injured athlete at age 17. That’s not something you would want to develop as a as a youth athlete because they’re going to basically be thrown against the wall like an egg and crack whenever they hit the ranks of U23. So that would be the question of like – some of the points I kind of noted whenever I read through this were: is it fun for her? What are the other things she’s doing as an athlete? Because if she’s living Toronto, why is she not doing something other, like cross training for her base work.She could, say, go out for an hour run or something like that, with some strength training, get 60 or 90 minutes of combined work from concurrent training on some of these days versus riding in the cold or something like that. It sounds like she’s being, not necessarily pushed, but if it’s base work in the winter, or the offseason, like maybe there’s some other general fitness that can then be transferred into specific fitness later, versus just going straight into cycling only.
Can parent’s effectively coach their own child?
Chris Case 18:42
Maybe asking a more general question, so we’re not picking on anybody as an individual, Ryan, Daniel, you’ve coached so many juniors in your life, would you encourage juniors to not have parents as coaches? Or do you see successful cases there? What are your thoughts around the that question of parents being coaches and seeing probably some parents that push way too hard?
Ryan Kohler 19:12
I don’t think a parent should be the coach. I think the parents should be part of the team. There should be a coach, so someone who doesn’t have that familial sort of interest. They’re there as a coach. But I’ve seen athletes that have had very supportive parents and they also have their coaches, and I think that works well. But yeah, when the parent tries to sort of live out their cycling dreams through the kid a little bit and they try to just impose their training thoughts and methodology on the child, I think that’s the problem. And if they don’t play nicely with the coach that obviously happens too. But yeah, I think that should be thought of as the team, the coach is there to develop the overall plan with the input from the kid. The parents can certainly have input, but I think it should all be a very collaborative approach.
Daniel Matheny 20:00
I couldn’t agree more. I mean, it’s one of those things where they have to have a vested interest. I’ve seen it from the standpoint of where I’ve coached both parent and child in a relationship before. And it’s been collaborative where they don’t want to have too much, but I think it’s good to have almost like that third party mediator as a coach. Because that coach-athlete relationship, it’s different for every coach and athlete, and that coach-parent-athlete relationship then creates a confusion of where their role stands in that matrix. So I feel like it could get confusing for the child od is this my parent or is this my coach talking to me? So having that disconnect from that family member is sometimes good.
Daniel Matheny 20:45
I have seen some good coaches as parents because they understand it, but they have to have unique kind of the heart of a teacher mentality a little bit versus actually like forcing people to do stuff. So if I see something that starts to go over the edge of a little bit more forceful, or like the screaming sideline parent, they want to live vicariously through their kids is not the ideal thing. They’ve got to let them find it. And usually, if they do push too hard, then the kids end up pulling back anyways, and engaging in something different. And it defeats the purpose from what the parents intent was.
Chris Case 21:20
Trevor,?
Trevor Connor 21:20
I’m gonna get myself in trouble here but, I have a friend who mostly coaches Junior athletes. And he once, very frustrated, lamented to me. You don’t coach Junior athletes, their parents coach them, and then you get blamed for when they don’t go the Tour de France.
Chris Case 21:38
Yeah, that sounds about right, yeah.
Trevor Connor 21:40
If you are a parent of a junior, the best thing you can do is find your child a good coach. And then get out of the way. Because there is that huge temptation, as you were just talking about, you want to see results, you want to see the proof that your child is the best, you want to see them improving. They say this about every sport that takes 10 years to reach your peak. But this is particularly true in endurance sports, these physiological systems take a long time to develop. And if you’re trying to force a 14 or 15 year old to be the best within a year, you’re going to go down this very dangerous high intensity all the time drive the kid route, which actually isn’t going to develop them well in the long run. And you need that coach who can see long term, see the big picture, and let them develop the athlete and be okay with the fact that your kid is going to develop a little slower, but ultimately be better for it.
Chris Case 22:41
Parents have mixed intention, some have good some have, arguably bad intentions. A lot of the times when you put though that’s that parent into the competitive scenario, their good intentions, head in the wrong directions. Like they just want their kid to do well, right? But the means to an end, it just gets confusing so I hear what you’re saying, Trevor, I hear what you Ryan and Daniel are saying as well. It sounds like getting out of the way and letting the coach do what a coach does best, especially in an age group where they have specific requirements beyond what you might have with adults is the best.
Chris Case 23:28
We should probably have an entire episode on coaching juniors. We could go on and on and on about this topic. Daniel, did you have a closing remark before we move on to the next question?
Tips for coaching juniors
Daniel Matheny 23:39
Yeah, I kind of wanted to turn it away from the the parent side of things. The concept of if I prescribe a workout or give somebody a workout, whether it’s junior or somebody else, if I don’t know the goal, and I can’t transpose that goal into what they can understand, then it shouldn’t be there on their training plan and the athlete shouldn’t be doing it. So one of the things with this, some notes I made, were regarding the coaching tips or some ways to engage the athlete. There’s certain workouts, whether they’re ogometer workouts in the winter, just to have some entertainment, but if that entertainment then results in being engaged in the workout, then the end result is the outcome that the coach wants and the athlete wants. So there’s a mini long term, like what Trevor was talking about, of can the athlete see what the desired outcome is? Even just the mezzo cycle; say we’re looking at a three week, four week block of this, is it a two month block – or whatever made up is a duration of a progression and communicating that to the athlete as well as making some of the workouts fun.
Daniel Matheny 24:41
So, one thing they noticed was its cadence and heart rate based for these prescriptions. And so if the athlete has typically had a lower cadence, say they’re a mountain bike athlete or they’re riding through the city and it’s a lot of start/stop from these intersections, then they may not be used to the high cadence. And that may take their heart rate higher because they’re not used to that higher RPM thus, they’re getting a lower power output and feeling like they’re going slow because they’re just not used to that additional cardiovascular strain that that increased RPMs makes. So that could be something to say, like, what is your normal cadence now? Then let’s try to progress up from there. If it’s 80 RPM, on an average ride, let’s try to go to 85 or 90, and they may thinking like RPM, they may be spinning their brains out at 100 -10. So we don’t know that. So that’d be one thing to look at from a coaching perspective.
Daniel Matheny 25:31
And then some of the coaching tips would be, maybe this athlete can, what I call, push the edge or basically ramp within their aerobic range and make them feel like they’re playing a little bit of a game because with juniors and with anybody, if it’s fun, they’re going to be more engaged. And if they just think I’m doing a two hour ride at this certain heart rate, they’re gonna get bored. But if you basically say, okay, ride within your areobic range, but not right at the top of it because that doesn’t give you anywhere to go. But as transitions and terrain or city blocks, whatever it may be, choose some landmarks, whether it be a telephone pole, or buildings or something like that, and increase your output or your perceived effort or just pressure on the pedals, if she’s not pushing with power, and try to increase it where you see your heart rate kind of go up to the top of your zone two range. I wouldn’t say up to 80%, but maybe it’s between 65 and 75%, or something like that. But then when you get to that point, then not necessarily stop pedaling, but ease off a little bit. So then you see your heart rate come back down. So then she can actually play with working within that range and having a little bit of microfocus instead of it being just such a, I’ve got to check off this long route. And if you can break it up like that she may be more engaged and have a little bit more fun in that process than if it’s actually just knock out the whole duration, if that makes sense.
Chris Case 26:52
Absolutely. I like that.
Trevor Connor 26:53
That’s great advice.
Daniel Matheny 26:54
Yeah, the fourth point was, there was nothing mentioned on the relationship to the duration, she was doing these low intensity rides, but with with the intensity and duration being inversely related: when one goes up, the other has to go down and vice versa with training. We don’t know what she was coming off of. So if her volume of intensity that she was riding at before was, say, five hours a week, and then the coach knows that, “hey, we need to work on this aerobic foundation.” And then that’s all the time she has. What if she just turns that over to five hours a week, and then that’s not enough stimulus to cause an adaptive signal, and she’s not feeling like it’s benefiting? And that could be valid. But we know that the aerobic basis necessary. So is that enough?
Chris Case 27:36
That’s a very good question. In itself, it brings up a question we had from a listener. Ashley from Sherbrooke, Quebec had something that relates really well to this. So why don’t I read that question now? And this opens the door for the question to be applied to any age group really.
The effectiveness of aerobic rides
Chris Case 27:53
She writes, “How long do aerobic rides need to be to get benefits? And does this change throughout the season? Or as I improve as a cyclist from season to season?” Big question, Daniel, do you want to start with that one?
Daniel Matheny 28:09
Yeah, I’m can’t claim to know the answer to this. But I think it’s very individualized based on where the person is coming from because you have to think of where their current fitness is, their goals, where they’re at in the season, if they have a existing block of intensity, or where they’re at thinking now maybe the offseason, it could be somebody coming in. So the short answer would be more than what they’re currently doing. And that’s kind of like the “Well, duh.” But the maybe more complex answer is, I think it would be what sufficiently or what effectively will deplete energy substrates like their glycogen stores to cause some adaptive signals, or also fatigue motor units and muscle fibers to where they’re actually getting that signal from type one fibers to the intermediate fibers to start kind of coming into the mix. And that’s different for everybody. So I think that’s maybe the more complex answer.
Trevor Connor 29:04
I fully agree this is a highly individual thing. You have to look at what they have been doing. And as you said, obviously increase it but you have to be careful about how much you increase. So if the longest ride somebody has ever done is two hours you don’t say go out and do a six hour ride. It’ll kill him.
Trevor Connor 29:20
Also, that’s going to vary, as the question asked, from season to season and throughout the season. So for example, in season, six hour ride for me, that’s just fun. You know, I just started training two months ago, the longest ride I’d done was about three and a half hours. I went out for a six hour ride on Saturday and barely made it home because I wasn’t ready for a six hour ride. Within a month or two it’d be no problem. So you have to kind of gauge where you are at, what you’ve been doing and increase a little bit but not in giant jumps.
Trevor Connor 29:58
We’ve talked about this a ton, but the best indicator that I have seen, personally, is looking for that cardiac drift. If you watch your heart rate enough, so if you don’t have a power meter, and you’re out for a ride, and all of a sudden just feels like your heart rates really high, or you’re trying to maintain a heart rate, and you’re just feeling like you’re starting to slog and slow down, but it’s that point where you start to see that drift. So power plummets relative to heart rate, or you just slow down you go, “Okay, I’m starting to fatigue a bit.” And I usually say 30 to 45 minutes after that point is about the right length.
Chris Case 30:32
And I’m going to correct you, it’s cardiovascular drift that we’re talking about here. We just did an entire episode on it.
Trevor Connor 30:38
Chris had something to offer.
Chris Case 30:40
I did!
Daniel Matheny 30:41
So ingrained in our habits to call it something.
Chris Case 30:43
Yeah, as an editor, you know, that’s my role here.
Trevor Connor 30:46
Are you gonna call me out for that every time now?
Chris Case 30:48
Well, I mean, no, because cardiac drifts easier to say.
Trevor Connor 30:54
I could say CV Drift.
Daniel Matheny 30:56
Yes. And I’ve maybe to bounce something off of Ryan here. Because obviously, we worked in the lab together, and I think even trained me on a lot of the stuff in metabolic testing and stuff. So I’ve been getting back into that personally lately, and I tried to pull some data when thinking about this, and I know it’s maybe an N of two, but I’ve tested a couple athletes and when I started looking at this was seeing what their fuel utilization is. And so a prescription for one person may be different than other. So whenever I look down into the details, from the research, there shows to be a 50% reduction and say glycogen stores is where people typically start sensing somewhat of a bonk. And maybe we don’t want to go there, but I was just using that number. So it’s like if somebody has, you know, 400 to 500 grams of stored glycogen, then they need to get through about half of that to sense some idea of bonk. So they’re depleting their energy stores.
Daniel Matheny 31:51
So whenever I started doing the math and looking at the differences of training status between a couple people in their lab results – and I only chiseled out and looked at like their zone two steady state power within the ramping metabolic test – and it was like the difference between three kilocalories per minute versus seven kilocalories per minute for carbohydrate oxidation. And how that related to grams per minute was one gram and 1.9 grams per minute. So within these two individuals looking at it, one being more trained than the other, it’s almost double. So it’s like, for that lesser trained individual, they may have to ride significantly longer and when I did it to the duration, it was a little over three hours for one person and a little over two hours for the other to basically get up through about 50% of that.
Daniel Matheny 32:38
Now, obviously, it’s not taking into account like what fuel they’re taking in and that stuff, and we’re not wanting people to bonk per se, but using that as a reference point, like the prescription is very different, depending on somebody’s fuel oxidation rates, to actually achieve that goal. So that’s the individualization of coaching is very important there. Because if you give somebody a three hour ride, thinking, this will do the necessary, you know, damage, we need to get an adaptive signal, it may for one and may overdo it for the other kind of deal, if that makes sense.
Daniel Matheny 33:09
But I like the idea of using the heart rate, or the cardiovascular drift that Trevor mentioned, because, usually from the understanding I have, when your body starts switching over to rely on a little bit more of another fuel source, or the less efficient muscle fibers come into play, then those chemo receptors in the body that drive the breathing frequency, heart rate, and stuff like that, signal an increase in that cardiovascular output. And so that is something where it’s like get to that point and then go over. Hopefully you take into account hydration and those kinds of things but-
Ryan Kohler 33:44
I think it’s a great way to start bringing in the data from physiological testing to try and get some estimates of essentially ride time and how to fuel those. So it makes sense. I mean, having measured glycogen with ultrasound in the past, we see that stores for people can be all over the map so there’s definitely some estimates we have to make. There’s equations where you can make some assumptions, but measuring it, it can be all over the map. I think looking at it here, with doing a metabolic tests, and just seeing yeah, does this person have essentially a higher burn rate, lower burn rate, I think it can give you good insight and it’s a great way to apply the data to help start that fueling process and individualize it. And then when they’re done with the ride, you’ll probably get feedback. I mean, if you fuel both people exactly the same, you’d probably get different feedback from the one who’s more highly trained versus the one who’s not and and then it would reinforce those results likely.
Does aerobic output after intensity still have the same effect? How does this effect training?
Chris Case 34:41
Well, another topic we could probably talk about endlessly. But let’s move on to our next question. It’s from Danielle, from Monument, Colorado. This is a very good question with a few different parts here.
Chris Case 34:56
“Does aerobic output after intensity still have the same effect? Or does it have an even bigger effect due to substrate depletion and muscle fiber recruitment change? How does this change how I plan my training rides?”
Chris Case 35:11
So lots of stuff to unpack there? Daniel, do you want to start with this?
Daniel Matheny 35:17
I think of this as kind of like a double whammy approach because it comes from two sides of the physiological system and the psychological component. There is specificity of this type of question, but say, if you do an aerobic ride, and then tack on the intensity at the end, it is more challenging from the standpoint of physically and psychologically. And so some people don’t like doing that.
Daniel Matheny 35:46
I think it is very effective, one, and use it specifically. Maybe later in season, whenever the athlete is more developed and more fit, then they’re more capable to tackle this, but if they haven’t done the work when they’re fresh, and they don’t see the repeatability of say, the interval work or the threshold or sub threshold work, then throwing this at them upfront may just crush them mentally and physically. But the way I see it is if you start out with aerobic and ramp into it, it kind of goes into the literature of the fast-start versus slow-start. If you go out of the gate, and what I consider priming your systems a little bit with a really hard effort, then the research has shown to basically utilize glycogen and your stored sugars a little bit more during that outing and that session, then if you would ramp into the effort. So there’s no reason to go full gas from the gun and basically prime it unless you’re just trying to be time crunched. So doing it at the end allows you to kind of work on those aerobic engine, and then while you’re fatigued, once you have some kilojoules logged, then doing it.
Daniel Matheny 36:49
But the tough thing is, is you actually see, obviously, not your personal best, your PBs, and that’s hard for some people and that’s a psychological point. But in riding with a world tour pro from down here in Colorado Springs once said, “It’s not your 20 minute power that matters, it’s your 20 minute power after several 1000s of kilojoules of work that matters,” because that’s when the races are won. So it’s like when you can make it to the end. So that would be the reason to do these later in the season and develop some of that psychological tenacity and grit and resiliency. Because if you can get past the point as an athlete to say, “I may not hit my best power, but it’s going to give me the best adaptive signal.” And I also got the aerobic work in prior. So I have more muscular endurance, I have more aerobic foundations, until I hit these, but I may not see my best powers. And that may be okay. And as long as that’s conveyed to the athlete, and they understand that that should be coached into their brain a little bit to make sure that they’re okay with that.
Chris Case 37:50
Trevor, I know you like to do this to yourself a lot, I assume that you would agree with what Daniel has just said. Not every ride, but certainly, at the end of a long training block, you would do certain things leading up to the big ride at the end. And that big ride would start off at a certain amount, you base it off of certain power or heart rate or whatever. But at the end, you’d basically just drill yourself into the ground and add the intensity as much as possible at the end. Do I have that right? Is that applicable to this conversation? Or is that a totally different thing?
Trevor Connor 38:24
No, you’d actually be surprised I don’t do a ton of that specifically. I actually really had to pro -on this one. First, I think I need to give you my bias. I’ve expressed this before, but I’m a big believer, when you do a ride, you really target one or two energy systems. I’m not a big believer in hit as many any energy systems as you can on a ride. So I tend with my athletes to say, get your warm up, get the work done, go home. Whatever the purpose of that ride is. So if we do want to really hit the aerobic energy system, that’s the “Yeah, go out for a long time. ” I’ll even in-season, say, go for five, six hour ride, but hit a hill first, do a little bit of damage, and then work on the aerobic side. But if an athlete’s going out and doing intervals, I generally just say do the intervals, come home.
Trevor Connor 39:15
But it was a really interesting question. So I gave it some thought and pro-con-ed it. The pros to this that I see are you’re going to have more fiber cycling. So you’ve done some damage to your muscle fibers. When fibers are fresh, and you’re going to easy, you’re just going to use your type one muscle fibers. When there’s some damage, when there’s some fatigue, one of the ways your muscles deal with that is start cycling fibers. So giving all the fibers little kind of micro rest. Which means you’re going to force your two-a fibers to start working aerobically, which is a good thing. Another pro is there’s going to be a greater strain and homeostasis. So theoretically, you’re going to get a greater training stimulus. Those are my two pros.
Trevor Connor 39:57
The cons: You’re probably going to be close to glycogen depleted or, as you were saying Dan, probably getting towards that 50% of your glycogen depleted. So you’re going to start relying on other fuels. So again, that’s now you’re getting into truly different energy systems and some of those fuels your body doesn’t like to use. And that will really affect your recovery. So ultimately, what I looked at is the big con is there’s going to be a much bigger negative impact on your recovery. Then the questions become are the gains worth the greater cost? And ultimately, the answer I landed on is probably periodically. I would not be doing this after every intensity session, but there’s probably a value in doing that every once in a while.
Ryan Kohler 40:49
Initially with this question my mind went to, in long endurance events, you know, being able to produce power late in the ride like that, and having seen different power files, heart rate files from long events, in the past I see some of the most successful riders, still being able to produce a fairly high percentage of that threshold hours into the game. I agree, this is something mentally, it’s pretty challenging. So it’s not something that I would do consistently, but I would insert it in specific times to prepare for particular events.
Ryan Kohler 41:30
When you do this, then you have to make sure that recovery is accounted for. So, I’ve used this in the past, with athletes preparing for that long gravel race in Kansas. I’ve had them go around Boulder, six hours, seven hours in the flats, they’d go out east, up north, and then come back into town and hit the foothills. And we do some pretty considerable climbing at a very controlled effort late in the ride. And that seemed to work really well. And it’s something of course, as long as you build in the recovery, now they can get that feel for “Okay, what are my legs like at this point? What can I actually do? How do I need to fuel” And then really just that grit? “How do I need to get myself through this knowing that this is sort of a taste of what a long distance race like that might actually feel like?”`
Daniel Matheny 42:19
If I can segue off that. But the utilization, I would say is very specific because it’s not something and utilizing this and coaching across the board it’s very frequent, but like, similar to what Ryan said, is for specific events, like Leadville, or the Kansas gravel event, those kinds of things, because for Leadville acts as an example, if you hit some of those climbs coming back inbound, after 50-60 miles, you have to be able to produce appreciable power, after you’ve done an appreciable amount of work. And so that’s why we’re doing it later in there. It’s like if you can settle into a sweet spot, or even tempo, at that point in the duration that you’ve already completed, it’s very, very important to know what that feels like – as well as be able to try to do it.
Daniel Matheny 43:08
The other part I think it segues to some of the other questions we’ve answered is like maybe it’s a way to get a little bit more to make sure that somebody does the aerobic work necessary to work on the aerobic side of things, but then still do that cycling that Trevor mentioned, of the different fibers to get a compounding benefit. And as long as you plan in the recovery, that obviously you tacked on a big effort at the end like a spike – what sometimes I call it the nail in the coffin – like you do a bunch of work and then you go do a hard effort at the end, or a bookend ride where it’s like at the end of the ride you book in this with a hard climb, it worked very well. And I can relate it to the example that Chris said, it’s like I did this personally and with several athletes in that you’re training for Dirty Kansa or the unbound gravel and it was very effective. Because whenever I went off course, in that race, unfortunately, went from first and second place to 17 miles off course, caught Rebecca Rush and turned her around and we got back on course and was able to set the KOM and the QOM for the last 50 miles, just trying to catch back up with the field. That was a year she won, but it was like still having that power to push hard in the last 50 miles was like, Okay, I did the work late in these rides in a net aerobic sense. And I think that was one of the type of training methods that that paid off a little bit.
Cumulative effects of supplement: Should you combine chocolate and beets?
Chris Case 44:28
All right, let’s turn our attention to this question from Dan Swenson. It talks about the cumulative effects of supplements, so more into the nutrition realm here. Here’s what he wrote. He has a question about nutritional effects of the flavonoids in dark chocolates and the nitrates in beetroot: “Are the effects of these type of supplements cumulative i.e. if you do them together, do you get a greater buffering effect than taking more of either of them in isolation?” Ryan?
Ryan Kohler 45:00
I wanted to look into this one a little bit deeper because of that combination question. We know, individually, both of these have positive effects on circulation and health. So it’s a great question of can we have them build on one another. I found one study that was cited a few times and other summary articles and it looked at this combined ingestion, and it went out from rest to I think all the way out to four hours. And they did find that there was an effect within the first hour. So there was a bit of a timing with this one. And what they looked at was flow mediated dilation. So this is something regularly used to look at that flow within the blood vessels. And of course, if it’s enhanced, then that really would be indicative of good flow and good health outcomes. So they did find that there was an increase after this first hour, but beyond that, everything went back to baseline by the fourth hour. So there was overall in this study, a positive outcome for tha. They did find that when the cocoa flavanols were ingested, after they did find that there was a change in the NO production, that nitricoxide production. They measured nitric oxide production a few different ways. And they found that there was actually a little bit less produced and we may have actually expelled more with this dual consumption here. So I think it’s still in the end, this study showed in one measurement of this flow mediated dilation, there was an enhancement, but there was also a change in sort of the metabolism of this. And then some other studies that looked at this, I couldn’t find a ton, maybe three or four in total, but they were still sort of like, “eh the jury is out. We need to better understand the mechanism of it. And to to see if this actually works.” So, maybe.
Chris Case 47:18
Just to chime in here, I should have mentioned when I lead into the question, for those of you who want to learn a little bit more about supplements, generally chocolate, beet root, pickle juice, I think we also touched upon, we did an episode on this, Episode 65: Debunking Supplements: What Works and What Doesn’t, so check out that episode.
Chris Case 47:39
Trevor, I know you will have some thoughts here too. What What do you think? Dumulative effect, skips supplements altogether? What would you say?
Trevor Connor 47:46
Well, so obviously, you know my bias, I’m not a supplement guy. I’m generally against, or I believe in keeping them limited. So for example, I believe in our last episode, we talked about all of our goals for the upcoming season, I talked about how I want to go and do, at the age of 50., I want to go and do a pro race. We’ve read the research on beet roots and chocolate and how they help performance and knowing that, knowing they help performance, knowing my goal, I still would rather sit on my couch and pick the belly button lint out of my belly button then bother to go buy beet root juice.
Chris Case 48:27
You’re gonna eat chocolate and you know it
Trevor Connor 48:30
But that has nothing to do with these studies.
Chris Case 48:33
I know. I know.
Daniel Matheny 48:34
As long as it’s an eight pound bar of chocolate in one day, right?
Trevor Connor 48:37
Yes, right. That is going to be one of my goals for the season.
Daniel Matheny 48:43
Go big or go home.
Trevor Connor 48:45
Yes. I tried to do some research on this. I actually looked up on PubMed anything that had both beetroot and chocolate, came up with six studies. There is one “Beetroot Improves Oxidative Stability and Functional Process Properties of Processed Foods Singular and Combined with Chocolate.” So basically if you want to improve your shelf life, then yes, both the combination of the two is better so you can sit on the shelf at the grocery store and still be fresh and tasty. That’s really the only study I found of the combination of the two.
Trevor Connor 49:25
I found a couple things, one talking about the effects of nitrates and I’ll just read what they have in one part of this review, “For example, while it is known that supplementation with approximately five to nine millimoles of nitrates per day for one to 15 days can elicit favorable effects and the physiological responses to exercise. The dose response relationship is yet to be established. It should be emphasized that five to nine millimoles nitrate can easily be consumed within the normal diet and there’s presently no evidence that additional nitrate intake produces greater benefits.”
Trevor Connor 50:07
So again, where I’m going to head with this is avoid that more is better, which is kind of what I’m hearing in this question of, “Oh, this is beneficial. That’s beneficial. Let’s add a ton of both. And I’m just going to absolutely be killing it.”
Trevor Connor 50:21
Another review that I found called “Impact of Dietary Antioxidants on Sports Performance: A Review” says “the effects of addition of polyphenols and other components to beetroot juice was trivial but unclear. Other food derived polyphenols indicate a range of performance outcomes from a large improvement to moderate impairment.” It talks about some of the specifics and then says, “however, chronic intake of most antioxidants have a harmful effect on performance.” So this is the no real evidence that combining them or more is better. Some evidence that yes, it helps in moderate quantities. Also some evidence that it can be, in the long run, detrimental.
Ryan Kohler 51:11
And one thing I can add to this study that I found is they actually didn’t use supplements in this one, they used apples and spinach to get those two sources. So really what I was able to take away from this is: eat your fruits and veggies daily, try to get a variety of them, and then you don’t run a big risk of any overconsumption, any toxicity, and you’re likely to get some sort of benefit from these. And it doesn’t have to be complicated.
Chris Case 51:44
Right. Daniel, anything to add to this?
Daniel Matheny 51:48
Yeah, I think kind of the same way. Maybe I’m a more of a cynic like Trevor, to me, this speaks to almost the compounding of marginal gains. Where if all of these things claimed to get 1% here, 3% there, if you try to combine them all, then we would all be World Tour pros, but that’s not the way it worked. We’re not going to get 20% better by getting an aero helmet and aero socks and drinking beetroot and combining it with cocoa. But I think the take home is what Ryan stated, eating the right foods and putting those in your daily diet. I think there’s so many things, going back to maybe previous Fast Talk episodes, of are you getting the right nutrition, or is it nourishing your body? Is it just a fancy sports nutrition that’s marketed to make money? Or is it something that’s giving you a real benefit? And part of that is if you’re putting that undue stress by trying to figure out the right dosage, the timing, how to eat it before, combine it with things, or eat it after to get the right the right effects, that to me is just more cumulative stress on your system. And something as an athlete is wasted bandwidth that it should be focused on the fundamentals. And so if it’s not well documented by now, not to say it couldn’t be, I’ve always looked to progress and find different ways, but I’m not looking for necessarily quick hacks, but more focused on the fundamentals. And so that’s get the right foods because it could be argula, spinach, those kinds of things to get more nutrients versus an isolated supplement that also have their coenzymes and things that go along with that, the fibers, all that stuff. So I’m not a huge fan of overly supplementation, even though I have taken beet root supplement and stuff like that. But I’d much rather just shave one on a salad and get it as a combination of real food.
Trevor Connor 53:36
Just call me cynical?
Chris Case 53:38
He did just call cynical
Daniel Matheny 53:40
I would like to be a cynic on the concept
Trevor Connor 53:44
That was very positive, you get a much longer shelf life!
Can Whoop measure PVCs? How accurate are watch monitors?
Chris Case 53:51
All right, let’s take on one last question. This one comes from Jeff Pugsley, “I’m not sure if you guys will actually have an answer to this. It’s kind of a tech question. Do you know if Whoop, can ignore or tolerate or take into account PVCs, pre ventricular contractions. PVCs are pretty common in the population. And I started getting them about two years ago. Right, Jeff. I do get more PVCs when I have more stress, but it doesn’t seem to have a great correlation with exercise. More so, with life stress and caffeine intake.” Trevor, I think I will start with you only because you wear a Whoop and I know you’ve investigated how it works in a little bit about that. So what would you say to Jeff here?
Trevor Connor 54:33
Here, I went back to my old ECG course and a PVC is a “premature attopic stimulus that originates in the ventricles.” Makes it clear, right? So the better explanation here is every time your heart beats, there’s various phases. So there’s a kind of a quiet phase where blood flows back passively into the heart. It initially filled up the the atria, which are the smaller chambers at the top of your heart, then the atria pump contract, which pushes that blood into the ventricles, then the ventricles contract. And that pushes the blood out of the heart. So there’s kind of a natural flow or natural process to this and a PVC is just when the ventricles get for a variety of reasons, impatient and don’t wait for that whole process and they beat before they’re supposed to. So before atria pump the blood into the ventricles.
Chris Case 55:39
Yeah, and some people will describe these as a sensation of a skipped beat or a flutter or something like this. It’s a benign, typically, very benign arrhythmia. It’s just out of rhythm, the heart.
Trevor Connor 55:55
Now what’s important here, when you look at that line, that classic line showing the heartbeat, where you get these little spikes, each of those spikes has a letter associated with it to describe that component. So the component from when the ventricle pumps is your QRS component. So basically, in a PVC, you lose the QRS or you get a very wide QRS. When you measure heart rate variability, you are measuring the length of time between the R components. So it would be the RRR interval. The C, as in a PVC, you don’t have an R, a lot of the time, I think that Whoop would be looking at this going, what just happened? Probably wouldn’t quite know what to do. So what you would probably see in the Whoop is just some really odd heart rate variability would be my guess. But the Whoop is not designed to actually measure when you’re getting PVCs.
Daniel Matheny 56:54
The background I have with this was I got really into measuring heart rate variability. And so somehow, after recording with four different apps to understand it better so I could utilize it with athletes, I got on the call with the CTO of one of the major companies. And they were like, “Wow, you have four years of data for four different devices.” And so we went into detail and kind of geeked out about it. At the time, the devices that were measuring it anywhere, but from the heart rate straps, or basically measuring on opposing side of your heart, they weren’t validating. I’ve seen stuff since then that actually has validated some of those as far as within a confidence ratio. But at the time, that was one of the things because what it’s called when it’s like a whoop or wrist based smartwatch or something like that, and I’ll try to pronounce this correctly, is “photoplus mammography.” Which is basically identifying the heart rate from emitting light. And the changes in the refraction from within your skin, may or may not have that right. But it essentially just shining a little light in and trying to get when it’s oxygenated blood and when it’s not. And so when you’re doing that from your wrist or some device, it’s not actually tracking those are our beats. That’s why there’s only certain devices that can be used and are validated to do it with HRV. And since then, I’ve seen some devices like the new Apple 4 and Whoop does it for the RRR intervals for heart rate variability.
Daniel Matheny 58:30
But specific to this, I did a little research and did find some things, four or five articles from 2015 to even a current one of 2020, and it said, like the title of this was “Premature Atrial and Ventricular Contraction Detection Using Photoplethysmography: Data from a Smartwatch,” and the things I pulled from that were that they’ve developed an algorithm that is within the confidence scale that can measure it. The only thing I wasn’t able to pull out from it was if the Whoop specifically does it. They actually used a Samsung watch that was a three or $400 US watch that would do it. But the things they noted was it had to be a very snug fit and controlled because there were more errors that they had to basically wipe out or correct in the readings. And they actually found better confidence in the smartphone app where you actually put the light up to your fingertip. There’s actually some apps that you can actually put them directly up to your fingertip and hold it there. And as long as there’s a good “seal”, I guess – and I say that with air quotes – Basically a good seal on the camera or the actual light on your fingertip, it actually was giving better and less errors than the actual smartwatch itself. So there is some data out there that shows that they are coming out with these algorithms. The only thing I couldn’t pull out if it was specific to Whoop or not. So that would maybe be a more of a Whoop, question. But my take on it is if you’re not getting the actual readings from your chest, from the side to side beats and what’s going on there, it’s not as easy to pull out those errors.
Chris Case 1:00:15
Well that makes for another episode of Fast Talk, thanks, Daniel.
Daniel Matheny 1:00:19
Thank you for having me. It’s been a pleasure as well.
Chris Case 1:00:24
That was another episode of Fast Talk. Subscribe to Fast Talk wherever you prefer to find your favorite podcast and be sure to leave us a rating and review. The thoughts and opinions expressed on Fast Talk are those of the individual. As always, we’d love your feedback. Join the conversation at forums.fasttalklabs.com to discuss each and every episode. Become a member of Fast Talk Laboratories at fasttalklabs.com/join and become a part of our growing education and coaching community. For Trevor Connor, Ryan Kohler, Daniel MAtheny, I’m Chris Case. Thanks for listening.
