Amos Brumble is a New England legend. Is it because of his racing palmarès? His charm? His collection of guinea pigs? Or all of those things? We find out, and then we dive into some listener questions.
David H. of Seattle, Washington asks:
“Suppose a 55-year old athlete is training with a heart rate monitor and perceived effort and recovery scales and is able to train between 10-16 hours/week. No power measurements. The athlete’s goal is to maximize performance on gravel races—about 100 miles and about 10,000 feet of climbing—which, with the exception of the first 20 miles or so, basically means a long time trial effort. Given that goal and training context, how would you recommend that a training plan be structured? I ask this question because so much of the discussion on your podcast references power. I understand why, but I don’t have a power meter in part, for cost, and in part because heart rate is enough ‘quantification.’ I’m interested in the meaning and aesthetics of riding hard.”
The next series of questions on low-cadence work comes from Ray Farris:
“My impression from your podcast is that the low cadence sessions talked about in the session were fairly short efforts at high power. However, Steve Neal of the Cycling Gym, whom you have had on Fast Talk a couple of times, seems to like to give his athletes sessions of several intervals of 20-40 min at low cadence at tempo power, generally 83% of FTP, subject to an 83% of max heart rate limit on power. And I just watched a Lionel Sanders YouTube video in which his coach had him do multiple sessions of 40 minutes at 50-60rpm at what I roughly estimate is about 80% of FTP.
What’s the thinking about these types of interval workouts? 1) Do these build FTP? 2) Are these “hard” workouts in the Seiler polarized model? Do they have a place in a polarized model and if so what is it and when is it in terms of periodization blocks? 3) Do these raise the athlete toward his theoretical VO2 max, but at the cost of lowering VLa max? Does this trade-off even matter for anyone other than pro level sprinters?”
Our next question comes from Russ Sanka, in Bristol, Tennessee. And it’s a good one for anyone who has a desk job. He asks:
“What can I do at a desk job to aid in training/recovery? I have been using a stand-up desk and a DeskCycle but I would like to hear your opinions and the research on the subject.”
This next question comes from Ivan Stanzio from Milan, Italy. He asks:
“I love to ride my fixie in the ‘off-season’ to train on. I feel like it helps me with training and strength that I can’t get on a geared bike. Is this true? If so, what am I gaining and how does that help me when I go back to the geared bike?”
Our final question comes from Peter Burghardt. He asks:
“Can you address ‘lunch ride syndrome’—the tendency to go out the door and immediately hammer down because you’ve only got 45 minutes. Do you have suggestions for lunch ride workouts of an hour or less?”
References
- Peterman, J. E., Healy, G. N., Winkler, E. A., Moodie, M., Eakin, E. G., Lawler, S. P., … LaMontagne, A. D. (2019). A cluster randomized controlled trial to reduce office workers’ sitting time: effect on productivity outcomes. Scandinavian Journal of Work, Environment & Health, 45(5), 483–492. Retrieved from https://doi.org/10.5271/sjweh.3820
- Peterman, J. E., Morris, K. L., Kram, R., & Byrnes, W. C. (2019). Cardiometabolic Effects of a Workplace Cycling Intervention. Journal of Physical Activity and Health, 16(7), 547–555. Retrieved from https://doi.org/10.1123/jpah.2018-0062
- PETERMAN, J. E., WRIGHT, K. P., MELANSON, E. L., KRAM, R., & BYRNES, W. C. (2016). Motor-Driven (Passive) Cycling. Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise, 48(9), 1821–1828. Retrieved from https://doi.org/10.1249/mss.0000000000000947
- Torbeyns, T., Geus, B. de, Bailey, S., Pauw, K. D., Decroix, L., Cutsem, J. V., & Meeusen, R. (2016). Cycling on a Bike Desk Positively Influences Cognitive Performance. PLOS ONE, 11(11), e0165510. Retrieved from https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0165510
Correction
After this episode published, we heard from friend and colleague Jim Peterman, the author of the study on the DeskCycle. Here’s what he had to say:
Just to be clear, DeskCycle is actually not passive cycling—you’ve got to pedal the DeskCycle. It’s really easy pedaling but still pedaling. The research we did with passive cycling was on a homemade contraption. (We wanted to create a passive cycling machine, but failed to find funding.)
You did hit it correctly in terms of the benefit of cycling at work and recovery. It’s maybe not the best for recovery. That being said, though, passive cycling (if we ever got one created) could potentially flush the legs in a similar manner as NormaTec boots. That could maybe improve recovery.
The key thing with these, though, is that you don’t need to be doing it all day. Just do it for a portion of time at work. (Maybe 10 minutes?) I don’t have any evidence for that other than how I felt after using it, but something for the future maybe.
A couple other thoughts:
- Cycling at work maybe isn’t going to help a ton in terms of recovery but may have other benefits such as improving markers of productivity or creativity or decreasing stress. Again, it doesn’t have to be done all day, but breaking up sitting can be beneficial in other ways.
- The DeskCycle did improve VO2max (in sedentary folks). So it might not be a recovery tool but a training tool.
- Cycling, whether passive or not, increased energy expenditure. So it could be a potential tool to help with weight loss.
Episode Transcript
Chris Case 00:12
Welcome to another episode of Fast Talk! Today we have a great Q&A episode for you. We talk about training without power, surviving your desk job, “lunch ride syndrome”, and that’s in quotes, and the benefits of fixies. All that and much more today on Fast Talk.
Chris Case 00:34
Well, we are sitting down again today for another episode of Fast Talk, a q&a episode. We’ve got a great guest. He is a bit of a New England legend. I want to hear how he gained that status here in a second. He has a quote unquote, “preference for coaching less elite athletes,” beginners, if you will, people that are looking to do events, but not necessarily race. He also has a huge racing background in itself. Welcome to Fast Talk. Amos Brumble. How are you?
Amos Brumble 01:08
I’m doing great. Thanks for having me.
Chris Case 01:11
Absolutely. Are you aware of your legend status?
Amos Brumble 01:15
Yes, yeah.
Chris Case 01:18
And how do you think you acquired that legend status? Is it the racing background? Is it the charm? Is it the guinea pigs that you have? Is it all of those things?
Amos Brumble 01:30
I think it’s a little bit of everything. I mean, some of it’s just durability. I’ve been doing it for a long time. I think I’d probably come across as a nice guy
Chris Case 01:37
For New England.
Amos Brumble 01:38
For New England, yeah.
Trevor Connor 01:40
You say that as if you’re surprised. I think I’m a nice guy, but…
Amos Brumble 01:45
Well, you know, it’s easy to be pretty sarcastic with people. So I think I kind of have been one of those people that has always been able to encourage new people on, but was comfortable with racing at a much higher level. I’m on my own. I really, really enjoy competition personally. But I usually don’t expect other people to actually do competition. I just enjoy the fact that they like to ride.
Chris Case 02:07
Well, today we want to talk a little bit about training without power. Some follow up questions on low cadence work, an episode we did not too long ago, we have some follow up questions there. We’ve got a question about how to survive life at a desk job and can you do things to improve training recovery? Can you transition from that sedentary life into being an athlete in better ways? We’ll talk about that. Benefits of riding a fixed gear bike and plenty more today. So let’s dive into it, shall we?
Amos Brumble 02:45
Sounds great!
How to improve performance without a power meter
Chris Case 02:46
This first question comes from David Hendry, who lives near Seattle, Washington. He asks, “Suppose a 55 year old athlete is training with a heart rate monitor and perceived effort and recovery skills and is able to train between 10 and 16 hours a week, no power measurements. The athletes goal,” and I assume here that this athlete, David Henry is speaking in third person. “The athletes goal is to maximize performance on gravel races, about 100 miles and about 10,000 feet of climbing, which with the exception of the first 20 miles or so basically means a long time trial effort. Given that goal and training context, how would you recommend that a training plan be structured? I asked this question because so much of the discussion on your podcast references power,” – which is true, but we also do reference heart rate RPA a lot, and we’ll get into that – “I understand why. But I don’t have a power meter in part for cost and in part because heart rate is enough, quote, “quantification”. I’m interested in the meaning and aesthetics of riding hard.”
Chris Case 03:47
Now, before we get into it, I also want to read, because it’s a interesting quote that David included with his email from the none other than Mario Cipollini, and he included this quote, because I think he talks about this as sort of how he sees the sport, that power might be ruining the sport or making it too much about the numbers and not so much about the style and the essence of riding. So here’s Mario’s quote, “We know everything about their watts, their heart rates, but of what interest? That doesn’t tell us anything about them. If we knew that a rider cannot produce more than 450 watts, then yes, that would be interesting to see on a screen that he’s reached his limit. But then again, this is just data, useless gadgets that imitate Formula One, and can only interest people who know nothing about cycling.”
Chris Case 04:42
Okay, so let’s get to the heart of David’s question here. Amos, do you have some thoughts that you’d like to start us with? Somebody that doesn’t like to train with power, has a goal in mind, a big goal – What would you start with here in terms of coaching him?
Amos Brumble 05:04
Well, usually the first thing that stands out is how old the athlete is. He’s 55. And saying that he can ride 10 to 16 hours a week, along with some of the other stuff that he’s kind of mentioning makes me think that he has a big background in cycling somewhere; which when he may have started, he may not have had a power meter, maybe didn’t even have a heart rate monitor at the time. So I think that perspective, can be of somebody who says, “I’ve done this for a long time, I have these level of capabilities, so why bother with a power meter?” And a lot of times the answer is, you may not want to and that’s perfectly fine. I think the best athletes I’ve ever seen have always been very attuned to things like perceived exertion. And they do an incredibly accurate job of giving themselves just enough training load to improve, but not so much that they get exhausted. That, in my mind, is one of the things that separates natural athletes from the average Joe that would get on a bike and start pedaling around. And if he’s capable of that, then yeah, going around and looking at perceived exertion, mileage goals, or hours on the bike… he’ll be able to build an effective plan.
Chris Case 06:34
He asks, how would you recommend that a training plan be structured? Anything different about a training plan in terms of its structure if somebody isn’t using power? I would venture to say that most of the same rules apply? Would you agree?
Amos Brumble 06:50
Yeah, I would apply all the same training, the only thing that would really vary is the numbers that he would look at. Let’s say he’s going to use perceived exertion and a heart rate monitor, and he’s got some kind of watch or something so he’s going to time his intervals. I mean, my experience has been that if an athlete knows how to feel the power that they’re putting out, they can do an interval, you can give them like a range of heart rates, which zone training is pretty popular, like years ago, and they can put out a required power.
Amos Brumble 07:26
The only workouts I see that are really power dependent are a lot of kind of micro intervals that you see offered in instruction plans now. Those are kind of harder to quantify with just perceived exertion, if that makes any sense? The normal thing is, it doesn’t mention that he’s trying to keep up with anybody, he just wants to maximize performance. I mean, for me, the maximize performance in long gravel races like that the standard plan would be to stay with the fastest people as long as you could because they would pull you to your best time, essentially. And then you just need to be able to ride to the finish at whatever pace you can maintain. I mean, I don’t know what level he’s competitive at. It kind of leaves some of that out.
Chris Case 08:11
Trevor, why don’t you jump in here and talk a little bit about, from your perspective, what you say to David?
Trevor Connor 08:20
Yeah, I’m still actually a little surprised when he said, we’re focused on power. What about heart rate? And RP? Because I would say, that’s been one of our themes is that power doesn’t tell you what’s going on internally. And you really need to know what’s going on with your body and an understanding, I think we’ve always been big proponents of know, the feel, heart rate is an internal measure, look at that. And certainly when you’re doing gravel training for something like a long gravel event, with my athletes, and I would look at power out of interest, but I would do almost all the training by RP and heart rate. Particularly because we’ve talked before about this cardiac drift effect. I actually want to see in an athlete, their ability to withstand cardiac drift. So somebody goes out for a five hour ride and two hours in, you’re seeing cardiac drift you go, you don’t yet have the assets you need for 100 mile gravel race. I want to see somebody go out, do that hundred miles of gravel race – 100 miles for most of us is gonna be a good six hours, right – I want to see them do that with minimal cardiac drift. So that’s the other way.
Trevor Connor 09:29
If you don’t have power, there’s other ways to tell. You can just simply tell, “Hey, I’m riding at the same heart rate and I seem to be just slowing to a crawl and struggling.” When I would have an athlete go out and do this training, as you know, when I was helping you get ready for a gravel race, a lot of that aerobic threshold training. So, that’s your lower threshold, that’s that just slightly hard intensity. So for example, if you want to do it by heart rate, let’s say your threshold heart rate was around one 75 aerobic threshold, it’s gonna vary for everybody, but it’s gonna be somewhere in that kind of 140 to 145 range. So if you go and ride that, it’s kind of hard. But I can maintain this and you want to be able to maintain it for a long time. And I would have an athlete ride at that heart rate regardless what happens to the power. If the power tanks, show the stamina or the ability isn’t there. And that’s something that we really need to work on. But this is the way you work on it, going out and doing these types of rides and developing your body’s ability to stay at that kind of set heart rate and keep the intensity up.
Chris Case 10:37
We have spoken about this several times before. Interesting to note, I think that we’re going to do an entire episode on cardiac drift coming up soon. So that will play into this discussion even more. Any other thoughts there Amos, or shall we move on to the next question?
Amos Brumble 10:55
I would like to add one thing: locally, we just had a gravel event Sunday, two days ago, it’s a 50 miler here in Rhode Island. And it’s a pretty good mix of like dirt roads, single track, a little bit of pavement here and there. And, you know, my gravel bike happens to have a power meter on it, and I pretty religiously use a heart rate monitor. And I guess what I would point out is, I agree with – for me, it’s like a heart rate zone thing with a little bit of a variation due to some of the terrain. But basically, my average heart rate for that event was 139. And my max was like, 167. And that was just a blip because it was a very steep climb on it. So essentially, I rode it for like a time trial for four hours. A lot of times my approach for gravel events is like that, you know. Not that I had to do a lot of them. But, you know, there was no group for me to ride with. So it was just maintain a steady effort the entire way. And kind of optimize, my effort over the course of the event. And that’s the direction I would tell them, although unless it’s an event where he can stay with the group, and then that’s a little bit different, he might have to put out high power early, so that he gets the benefit of like being able to sit in.
Chris Case 12:15
Mmhmm, right, right. Yeah, this goes exactly what you said, Trevor goes back to that type of training where, you know, you’re going to have to eventually get into time trial mode, whether you’re by yourself, maybe you’re within one other person, but it’s all about that very consistent, very steady pace that you can hold for a long time. And the training for that is something we’ve discussed several times before, so.
Trevor Connor 12:43
Now the question I want to throw back at you, Chris, because you’ve done some of this type of racing and have some experience with it, and David even points this out, he says, with the exception of the first 20 miles or so you’re basically time trialing. So there’s a certain period of time that you’re trying to stay with the leaders or with a group depending on your level. And that tends to not be very steady. It tends to be surge-y, there tends to be some attacks, and there is a certain point where you go, “Okay, I just gotta go my own pace.” What is the balance? At what point do you make that decision of “Okay, now it’s time to just ignore everybody else and go my pace?”
Chris Case 13:18
Yeah, I think people take different approaches, you know. A gravel race can have almost three types of races rolled into one, some of them go off so fast, you think you were at a cyclocross race. And then it gets into something that’s akin to a road race where there’s a bit of slow down and pace, and then somebody might attack a little bit, and people will chase it down and there’s some shuffling and stuff like that. For the most part, going back through my memory of the gravel races I’ve done, I’d say almost all of them end up being somewhat of a solo time trial or a time trial with just a small group of people, one, two, maybe 10. And small groups might reform out on the road late in the race as people catch you or you catch them…
Chris Case 14:10
So how do you pace these things? Well, that’s a good question. You can gain a lot if you stick with a group. But you can also if you let things get carried away, or your egos too big, and you’re like, I can hang with these guys, no problem, I’m getting so much of a draft, it’s never gonna catch up to me, you can put yourself into a place that you won’t recover from because in these longer races, you’re talking about 12 hours out there and there’s no comparison. You could get yourself into a place where you’ll never recover. And I’ve done that as well. So it’s one of those that I don’t know that you can really tell a person how to do it, that there’s some feeling involved, there’s some decision making you have to make in the moment. You could just say I’m going to be conservative, and I’m going to let those people ride away immediately, and I’m going to do my thing. And there’s going to be a group I’m with and I’m going to gain some benefit, but it’s not going to be the lead group that I would really get pulled along with. Or you can say, I’m gonna be aggressive. I’m going to do everything I can to sit in, but I’m going to sit in that draft of the lead 40, or however many it is, and just be very careful to not hang on to them too much and go into the red too many times trying to hang with that group. So it’s a balancing act like a lot of times.
Low cadence work
Chris Case 15:39
All right, let’s move on to our next question. This one comes from Ray Ferris and has to do with low cadence work. “My impression from your podcast is that the low cadence sessions talked about in the session were fairly short efforts at high power. However, Steve Neal at Cycling, Gym, who you have had on Fast Talk a couple times seems to like to give his athletes sessions of several intervals of 20 to 40 minutes at low cadence at tempo power, generally 83% of FTP, subject to 83% of max heart rate limit on power.”
Chris Case 16:16
So he’s asking here, a little bit about low cadence work. He has some follow up questions about what these types of intervals are all about. Those questions are, “Do these types of sessions build FTP? Are these quote “hard: workouts in the Seiler polarized model? Do they have a place in a polarized model? And if so, what is it? And when is it in terms of periodization blocks?” And finally, “Do these raise the athlete toward his theoretical VO2 max but at the cost of lowering VLaMax? Does this trade off even matter for anyone other than pro level sprinters?”
Chris Case 16:58
So a lot to unpack there. Amos, I guess I’ll start with you. We have recently had an episode all about low cadence work, I’m just curious how much low cadence you work into your training and what results you see or hope to see from doing it.
Amos Brumble 17:19
Honestly, very little. One of the things I look at is how often in events would I use low cadence. In the last few years, I’ve been more focusing mostly on mountain bike racing and low cadence is a very common scenario in certain situations; either, you’ve entered a technical thing, and now you have to restart the gear that you’re in, or you’re in a situation where you just don’t have a long enough gear, and you’re going to be at a low cadence, on a significant amount of the course. And I’ve done events like that.
Amos Brumble 17:55
So I want to say the terrain kind of winds up dictating the cadence. So in training, I usually pick terrain that would simulate races, and then it would wind up giving me those cadence ranges. And I find that if somebody is competing on the road, they probably will not use low cadence that often in the event. But I also feel like if you use low cadence you’re prepared. So this will speak to one of the later questions that I saw coming up, which is, I think athletes need to be able to use a wide range of cadence. And what I find with a lot of riders is they have a very narrow range that they’re capable of generating a good amount of power. And if you get a little bit outside of it, their ability to do that falls off rapidly. And I think if an athlete is one of those people where they have to use a particular cadence range, but they’re not able to do it effectively, then that training becomes very important for them to show improvements.
Chris Case 19:00
Trevor, I might turn it to you for some of these specific questions that Ray had at the end. Do these types of interval workouts build FTP?
Trevor Connor 19:12
Yes and no. I actually almost never do short big gears. What I do, there’s a particular type of sprint work and I think we’ve mentioned that but that was kind of a here’s another option. Generally when I’m personally talking about big gear work, it’s longer.
Trevor Connor 19:33
So we did an episode with Sebastian Weber, where we talked about this; so going to the very bottom question of: does this raise your theoretical or get you closer to your theoretical VO2 max but at the cost of lower and Vlamax, I think Sebastian Weber’s answer would be that’s always a seesaw. You can’t raise both. So if you are getting closer your theoretical VO2 max, I don’t care how you get there, your Vla Max has to come down. So, yeah, I would agree this is more a workout that you see time trials do, then something you would see a sprinter want to do. And plus, sitting there grinding at a big gear, that’s the antithesis of sprinting. Sprinting is very high cadence. So a sprinter probably wouldn’t want to do this.
Trevor Connor 20:20
So there is proven benefits with time trialist, a lot of time trialist will do this type of work. Is it a direct, this raises your FTP? I think it hits at one of these systems that’s needed to be able to sustain a very high threshold power. One in particular, is riding just below threshold like this is where you maximize lactate clearance. So you can really train that ability to clear lactic because that’s what’s often can be a limiter in a time trial. So if you really want to get into the weeds, you could argue, you’re improving your ability to clear lactate, you’re not necessarily increasing your threshold power. But that’s going to help you to sustain a higher power. But another factor to consider is when you do this big gear work, your heart rate comes down. So at a given power, your heart rates actually going to be significantly lower. So again, I haven’t seen any research on this, but it was proposed, and I wish I could remember who proposed this in one of our previous episodes, that since your heart rate is lower at the same power, you’re able to do work that’s close to your FTP, close to your threshold power with what looks like a lower physiological strain. So there’s benefits to that as well.
Trevor Connor 21:45
Where does it fit in the polarized model? Well, yeah, this is right in that zone two which they say in the polarized model to avoid, or you want to minimize, but it’s never a never touch that zone. So I think this is one of those exceptions, especially if you are that time trial type rider where you go “Yeah, you’re on zone two, but that’s okay.”
Chris Case 22:06
And for anybody wanting to check out the entire episode on big gear work that we just did, it’s Episode 125.
Desk cycling: Are marginal gains worth it? And passive verse active recovery
Chris Case 22:14
All right, let’s move on to our next question, which comes from Russ Sanka in Bristol, Tennessee. It’s a good one for anyone that has a desk job, which I would assume is a lot of us these days. He asks, “What can I do at a desk job to aid in training and recovery? I have been using a stand up desk and a desk cycle, but I would like to hear your opinions in the research on the subject.” I’m going to start with you, Trevor, I know you’ve actually looked into – First of all, what is a desk cycle? And what does the research say on how useful this tool is?
Trevor Connor 22:53
The funny thing was, I hadn’t heard of a specific desk cycle. So I looked up research on that before this episode, and lo and behold, there was a study. And guess who did this study?
Chris Case 23:07
Yeah. Our friend, Jim Peterman
Trevor Connor 23:11
Here at CU. He’s at Ball State. But he did this research as part of his PhD. This desk was a desk cycle.
Chris Case 23:18
Desk cycle, yeah.
Trevor Connor 23:20
It’s this little device you put underneath your desk, and it’s got pedals on it, and you put your feet on it and it’s passive cycling. So it’s going to actually spin, its motorized spinning, really and forces you to pedal. You can sit there and work, your legs are pedaling, but you don’t have to think about it. So actually, the technical term, that I’m not gonna say I knew until I saw this article from Jim, is NEAT: non exercise activity thermogenesis.
Chris Case 23:51
Wow, interesting. So the pedaling system, the desk cycle is effectively doing the work for you. Your legs just happened to be moving along with it.
Trevor Connor 24:00
So what they were looking at in their study was, do you actually do any work if this thing is forcing your legs to spin? And what they actually discover is yes, there was a significant increase in thermogenesis in lines with just a slow walk. So you are getting some enhanced activity from using this thing.
Trevor Connor 24:22
Now, their research and all the other research they found on these types of devices was really focused on the health side. The fact that it is unhealthy to sit at a desk stationary for a long period of time. As a matter of fact, Chris and I were talking about this before, there was this really interesting recent study that looked at hunter gatherer societies and discovered that often when they weren’t moving, they were squatting which also had a certain amount of non movement activity to it. And so really, it’s unnatural for the human body to spend that much time completely just not moving, not doing anything. So there’s a lot of research to say there’s benefits from a health perspective for this sort of thing, but I think the question is about, is there performance benefits? And I certainly have my opinion, before I get mine do you want to jump in here?
Amos Brumble 25:17
I saw this question and the first thing that kind of came to my mind is that this person is trying to improve their performance outside of the time that they’re using to actually train. And I think it’s risky business a lot of times. Usually what I tell people when I’m coaching, is that you have to prioritize things like your work and your family and your cycling. And I think a lot of people are really driven to improve their performance, and then somehow mix it in with the other things that they do. And I find that it doesn’t actually work out. Like I’d tell this guy you’re probably better off sitting in a chair with the normatec recovery boots on than you would be spinning the deskcycle.
Chris Case 26:10
Right. What you’re saying, I think, is that it’s good to, in this regard, compartmentalize. Keep your training, training, keep your work, work, keep your recovery, recovery, and don’t try to blend all of them together and try to find some way while you’re sitting at your desk to become a better athlete.
Amos Brumble 26:33
Exactly. I have a whole bunch of like acronyms I’ve used with trying to explain training to people that are just becoming athletes. And you know, one of them is concentration. And it’s very difficult to concentrate on different things all at the same time, the mind just doesn’t work like that. And I would encourage Ross to move his recovery methods to times that were probably more effective.
Trevor Connor 27:01
I would add to this, we live in this era of this really popular term “marginal gains”.
Chris Case 27:08
Mm hmm.
Trevor Connor 27:09
This little thing gives you a marginal gain, that little thing gives you a marginal gain. And I’ll give you my opinion on that, which is, if you are a Tour de France athlete, yes, you need to find every little marginal gain you can get because you’re all super high level athletes and again, the difference between the guy who finishes last and the guy who wins is surprisingly small. But marginal gains accounts for about 5%. So my response is, for most of us focuse on the 95% and just getting the most out of that is all we need to do and we don’t need to look for all these little marginal gains that sometimes are going to take us in bad direction.s So I’m looking at right now, the one study I found that gave me a bit of an answer to this, which is, title is “Muscle oxygenation induced by cycle exercise does not accelerate recovery kinetics, following exercise induced muscle damage in humans, a randomized crossover study” that’s good, simple English right there.
Chris Case 28:08
Right, right. Journal speak.
Trevor Connor 28:09
The gist of this study is they looked at soccer players, they had them do some work, do some muscle damage, and then the next day had them do easy cycling to see if it helped them. And what they actually found was no, it hurt their recovery. And that’s a slight confirmation of what I suspect which is getting on this under the desk bicycle device, desk cycle in between your workouts, you’re not going to get any performance gains from it, it’s not going to make you stronger, just not doing that much, but could very well inhibit your ability to recover. So to me, if your focus is health, and you don’t like the idea that you’re sitting around being completely sedentary for a long time, go for it. If you’re looking for a little marginal gain to your performance, my guess is this would have the opposite effect.
Chris Case 29:05
And for both of you guys, is this what people refer to when they talk about quote unquote, “active recovery” – it’s actually not helping you recover at all?
Trevor Connor 29:16
Yeah, so I mean, we talk if you remember, we were talking about Dr. Andy Pruitt, what a week ago. And we were talking about recovery and he went, “Look, most of recovery is just sleep.”
Chris Case 29:26
How does this fall into, and I know that this is straying from the question itself, but recovery rides? You do a big ride one day, you wake up the next day, you do the staircase test you you can feel something in the legs, the ache, the burn whatever you want to call it. I would suggest there’s a lot of people that think doing an easy spin the next day is a good thing for them.
Amos Brumble 29:54
So we did an episode on this a while ago, and I will say the the study that I just read the title to contradicts that past episode so I’m actually interested in digging deeper into this. But our theory in that episode was diving into the fact that it’s your immune system that handles muscle repair and there is evidence of this hormetic effect of very light activity actually promotes your immune system. Well, very heavy activity actually blunts your immune system.
Amos Brumble 29:54
I think the big thing I would point out is doing things that make you feel better versus things that actually make you better. And I think that’s kind of the point that I would get at. And to speak to that last part, if I had a choice between given somebody that had a full time job, active recovery and passive recovery, I would go for passive recovery. And most working athletes that I’ve seen are, basically they’re under rested. Because that’s their problem. Essentially under train and they over train compared to how much they’re able to rest. And when I see a habit, you know, a program like a do this to help you recovery, but it involves more, doing more. I’m like, Yeah, I don’t know about that.
Amos Brumble 31:16
Yeah, it surpresses it.
Trevor Connor 31:16
Right. So if your immune system is responsible for that repair, there is the argument go out for a very, very easy spin, that’s going to promote your immune system, which is going to help the recovery. But this study right here is saying, maybe not. Be interesting to dive deeper into this.
Amos Brumble 31:34
Yeah, you know, one of the things that I like to do is I like to measure a lot of stuff, you know, so I have a Garmin, like Phoenix watch they wear all the time. And on the average number of flights that I walk inside my store each day is 52 flights of stairs.
Chris Case 31:50
That’s a good amount.
Amos Brumble 31:51
Yeah, that’s every day usually, you know, 10,000 steps for the day, 50 flights of stairs. And so personally, I actually never do active recovery rides.
Chris Case 32:04
Yeah, it’s just not a thing. You get what you need, so to speak, from working at the shop.
Amos Brumble 32:10
Yeah, just moving around.
Transitioning into an athlete
Chris Case 32:12
Now, I want to take this question in another direction altogether. And I don’t know if this was somewhere hidden in what Russ asked or not, but I feel like it’s it’s a worthy discussion. If somebody actually just had a desk job, and wasn’t an athlete, but wanted to become an athlete from sitting at his desk all day, or her desk all day. Are there, ways that they should go about doing that? Or ways that they could make that transition easier? And I’ll start with you Amos here.
Amos Brumble 32:52
I think there is. Usually the biggest thing I have most regular people do, would be to stretch. And not necessarily because it’s really going to make all that much of a difference, but I think it it, it will take something in your mind on a regular basis, that you’re an athlete, which is a very big transition for the average person. So having a constant reminder of some small habit that they could do repeatedly, to constantly remind them, I’m an athlete, I’m looking to perform better and I kind of see that as part of it. Whether they would do some under the death cycle or stretch or just how ate, you know, how they reached for something, all of that stuff should be part of their everyday life.
Chris Case 33:45
And so tell me a little bit more about what this transition looks like; how long that – it sounds like this is something that you’ve done before, you’ve worked with a lot of people that are new to the sport. But it also pertains to people that are maybe just taking it to the next level or wanting to be quote unquote, more elite”, what’s that transition look like in more detail?
Amos Brumble 34:09
From what I’ve seen, it takes years for people to do it. If they’re coming from a background of no competitive sports, it takes a very long time for them to transition and in their mind think of themselves as being an athlete or being a cyclist more specifically. And they need constant reminders. You know, it needs to always be in there. And it takes a long time for the person to be reminded of these things before they start to – It’s basically who they are.
Chris Case 34:42
Yeah becomes an identity rather than just a pastime.
Amos Brumble 34:46
Yeah, and you know, so I tell people, it can start in a lot of ways, you know, and it sounds kind of small, but it might be what kind of socks they wear. I know we all laugh, but you If somebody buys a pair of cycling socks, and decides that they’re going to wear those socks to work every day, it’s a little reminder that they’re a rider. It’s part of who their identity is. And it may be like, kind of like Superman, where it’s like underneath your clothes, you can rip it off and you’re like, “Hey, this is who I am.”
Chris Case 35:19
Hmm. That’s interesting. I hadn’t heard that one before.
Trevor Connor 35:26
I get that because so I also have on those Garmin Phoenix watches. And I have had several of my friends who are completely in the business world go “Why do you wear that watch?” I mean, the thing is giant. It doesn’t look that professional. So they’re like, “Why don’t you get an apple watch?” or “Why did you get this or that to show a more professional look?” And every time I get that question, I’m like, but I’m an athlete. And this is an athlete’s watch. And it’s just that nice little reminder on my wrist of where my focus is.
Amos Brumble 36:02
I mean, I think it’s very important, and it’s not spoken about it enough.
Chris Case 36:07
Let’s move on to our next question.
Trevor Connor 36:09
Well there’s the answer: Don’t get a deskcycle get a phoenix watch.
Chris Case 36:12
There you go. And some socks.
Trevor Connor 36:14
And some socks.
Chris Case 36:15
But don’t make them too long or too short. They got to be just the right length.
Trevor Connor 36:19
They’re not going do any movement under your desk.
Chris Case 36:23
I’m really still puzzled by the desk cycle and the fact that it’s moving your legs, you’re not moving the pedals.
Trevor Connor 36:32
If you have to control it yourself, and I actually found a study that addressed this, do you lose your focus on your work? Because you’re you’re splitting between trying to make sure you continue pedaling and working. So the idea is, if this keeps your legs moving passively, you can be 100% focused on your work, while still getting some activity.
Chris Case 36:56
Mm hmm. Very good.
Amos Brumble 36:57
I was kind of surprised I didn’t see a mention of a 10s unit.
Chris Case 37:02
Oh, I don’t even know what that is.
Amos Brumble 37:04
You know, where you would stimulate the muscles?
Chris Case 37:06
Oh I see I see.
Amos Brumble 37:08
Yeah, you know, which would be another passive activity that is shown to have benefits. Mm hmm. But obviously, this desk cycle seems like a more convenient way to get that to happen.
Chris Case 37:21
Yeah, I guess if you’re in at work or a place of business with electrodes attached to your body –
Trevor Connor 37:29
That would make for such a fun zoom call. Hi, everybody!
Chris Case 37:36
Yes, slightly different mindset between those two user groups there. I’m looking at the desk cycle online right now. Only 200 bucks, on sale, we might have to buy one and do a little study on our own. Trevor there. Well rated Four and a half out of five stars here on this website that I shall not mention.
Trevor Connor 37:59
Well, so again, I just want to emphasize, we were talking about performance. And from a health standpoint, yeah, from everything I read there seems to be benefits. So our only negative was if you’re looking for it in some way to improve your performance, no, I think you’re going in the wrong direction. But I don’t want to put down the product at all.
Chris Case 38:21
Yeah, no, understood. Absolutely.
Are there any performance gains using a fixed gear riding?
Chris Case 38:25
All right, let’s move on to kind of the opposite of the desk cycle, which is fixed gear riding. This question comes from Ivan Stanzio from Milan, Italy. He asks, “I love to ride my fixie in the quote, “offseason” to train on I feel like it helps me with training and strength that I can’t get on a geared bike. Is this true? If so what am I gaining? And how does that help me when I go back to the geared bike?”
Trevor Connor 38:54
Oh no, this will keep your legs spinning, whether you like it or not even when you’re going over your handlebars from experience.
Chris Case 39:00
Right, right. Yes, we won’t get into the practical and safety issues regarding riding fixed gear bikes out on the road. Plenty people can do it if you’re skilled at it. But yeah, I don’t know if we’re recommending it or not recommending it, we’re agnostic when it comes to fix gears, but let’s talk about the training benefits. Amos, have you ever done much track riding? Have you ever been a bike messenger in your life?
Amos Brumble 39:31
I have ridden on the track, but I wouldn’t call it anything, but I have ridden fixed gear bikes pretty extensively. The benefits that I like I think apply to people that are maybe newer, in that it gives that cadence range that I mentioned earlier, which is you know, being able to perform at both a high and a low cadence. I think one of the things I don’t really hear spoken about too much is the the idea of going out and riding it, you know, where I live, there’s some rolling hills, nothing very large, but then using, basically the back pedal motion to control the cadence or the speed. And I’ve always felt like I there was some benefit to that. But I’ve never seen that quantified in any way. So not sure what that would be, but it does feel effective.
Chris Case 40:22
So it sounds – you say you’ve done a lot of this type of riding when would you work it into your training? How often?
Amos Brumble 40:31
You know, I’ve had years where I rode it pretty exclusively during the winter, usually postseason. It was something I’ve spent some time racing in Belgium, and one of the recommendations for the offseason, at the time now, you know, you realize that somebody that’s giving me the recommendation was a professional racer in the 60s. So take that into consideration. But he would say basically do maybe a certain amount of mileage to start and then transition into using your regular bike with gears. And that might be say, you know, 1000 miles, which isn’t too hard to accumulate in a pretty short period of time, might be three or four weeks for somebody who is a pretty active competitive racer.
Chris Case 41:19
Right, and you would go out open roads, over rollers, and just always with the same gear or would you change the gear?
Amos Brumble 41:34
Basically, I ride it everywhere. At the time when I first started doing this, I actually would deliver newspapers in it. And I would do my training rides on it. And the gearing itself, I usually wouldn’t change it much. Usually, what I changed was the distance that I would ride and the terrain. So I usually would transition to longer distances or more more hilly terrain to kind of change the difficulty of it.
Chris Case 42:03
Great, Trevor, can you quantify any of the gains here?
Trevor Connor 42:11
So my first year living in Boston, I went to, the big group ride was the Belmont Wheelworks ride every I think it was Saturday mornings, and I remember the first time I went there, it was probably December, January, sometime, it was cold. It was winter-y. And I showed up in a regular bike with the ability to shift gears. I just got the dirtiest looks. Everybody on that really was just like why are you not on a fixie? What is wrong with you? And we’ve said in the show before that every region has its little eccentricities, upstate New York, you don’t use handlebar tape. New England in the winter, you ride a fixie. And I honestly think you can make the arguments for pedal stroke and all these other things, but I think a big factor was sloshing crap on the road, it’s a lot easier to maintain a fixie.
Trevor Connor 43:02
But I will also say, certainly, when I moved to British Columbia, Who Shang, my coach up there, put me on a fixed gear bike, because I was a grinder and he wanted me to work on my pedal stroke. And he made sure I used a gear that was on the group rides, I basically couldn’t drop much below 90 rpm. And it was great work on pedal stroke. So I would say there is a neuromuscular gain to it.
Trevor Connor 43:34
In terms of building strength; I would have a hard time, and I haven’t seen research in this, So I’m just kind of making it up as I go here. I don’t see how it would give you any gain besides just going out on a regular bike in a big gear.
Chris Case 43:50
Yeah, I mean, it may be strength here is being used somewhat incorrectly for that power throughout a greater range, you know, and it sounds like that can be effective because effectively you are doing big gear work, some part of the ride if you’re on rolling terrain, you’re spinning fast. And also a neuromuscular component and other parts of that same ride given the terrain, and so it just helps with cadence, it helps with pedal stroke and feel and all of that.
Amos Brumble 44:28
I mean it just to give like a recent anecdote for me is this is like maybe two months ago, we had a group ride out of the shop. And so I run scram, like access. And what I didn’t realize is one of the batteries died in the shifter. So we left the shop and a lot of times I don’t shift too much, you know, about half mile I went to go shift, wouldn’t work. I could have just turned around and gone home. The gear I was in was pretty low, but I decided to keep doing the rest of the ride. I did the whole ride in one gear. Some of my other experiences, you know, would say like, if I had not done the fixed gear training that I had done when I was young, I wouldn’t have had the neuromuscular capability to pedal those kinds of RPMs to keep up on the ride.
Chris Case 45:13
Yeah, I mean, I think that that in itself, whether you are riding a fixed gear, or a single speed, that doesn’t have a fixed hub, or you ride a geared bike, but you essentially force yourself to ride in a single gear an entire ride is a good training tool for the winter months or things like that, when you’re trying to get some of these gains, these neuromuscular gains and cadence range gains and things like that, when you wouldn’t want to do that in other parts of the season.
Amos Brumble 45:48
Yeah, I think it’s pretty safe to point out because I’ve looked at a lot of downloads is that most riders will operate in a very narrow range when you look at the cadences that they use. They, like I said, when they get out of those ranges, they have a lot of difficulty whether they run out of gears at the high end, or they run out of gears at the low end, and they get ridden away from not because they’re not physically capable of it, but more like it just doesn’t feel right. And I think the feeling that you can develop from having those wide ranges and having to keep up is a benefit that’s not spoken about much.
Trevor Connor 46:28
So one warning for anybody who’s thinking about trying this. There’s a difference between a single speed and a fixed gear. So single speed is just like a normal
Chris Case 46:41
Has a free hub.
Trevor Connor 46:42
Yeah, there’s a free hub. So if you stopped pedaling you coast. If you stop pedaling on a fixed gear bike-
Chris Case 46:48
Yeah, don’t do that.
Trevor Connor 46:49
Your bike bucks, you go over the handlebars, it’s really not fun. So be careful if you try this. It’s like that first time you use clipless pedals and you get to a red light and try to put your foot down and you just fall over.
Chris Case 47:04
Yeah, you forget.
Trevor Connor 47:05
Yeah, the problem is on a fixed gear, you’re doing that at high speed.
Chris Case 47:09
Right. Yes, certainly, you can ride a fixed gear, and also have brakes on the bike so that you have that control so that you’re not having to resist or backpedal to slow down. Again, we’re not necessarily recommending this, we’re not recommending this, we’re just saying just be careful if you try this. And of course, this is why fixed gear bikes, or track bikes usually are not on open roads, because you don’t have the ability to break or slow down if you’re new to it as you would with a quote unquote, “normal bike.”
Trevor Connor 47:48
Definitely do not ride in a group until you have had a lot of experience.
Chris Case 47:52
Yes, right, right. But then go on YouTube and search for like fixed gear rides down Stelvio, and see what the guys can do on fixed gear bikes. And don’t try to do that yourself. Because you’ll die.
Maximizing “Lunch ride syndrome”
Chris Case 48:09
Alright, let’s move on to our next question, which comes from Peter Burkhart. He asks, “Can you address, quote, “lunch ride syndrome”, the tendency to go out the door and immediately hammer because you’ve only got 45 minutes. Do you have suggestions for lunch ride workouts of an hour or less?”
Amos Brumble 48:31
Well, you look at the structure of the workouts, you know, most of the time I tell people that pretty simple structure for a workout would be to have a warm up, a work part of the workout where you’re trying to achieve something specific, and then a cool down. And I try not to make things too complicated. So the person would have a good mindset of I need to gradually transition from I’m doing my job, and I need a few minutes both to get my body ready and also get my mind ready to do something that is not work related. So usually it takes a little bit of a transition. And then, you know, for the middle part of the ride it, yes, I mean, you could do anything from an endurance pace to all out Strava type efforts and then have a cool down and be able to get benefit out of the workout. But there’s also benefit to having rides that are just steady. I mean, in some of the earlier questions they had talked about, like a big gear ride for a steady long effort, you know, that might be another way to use the time. You know where you’re trying to maximize it but always keep in that I need a warm up, I need to cool down and I need to focus in the middle.
Chris Case 49:49
I think one thing that Peter really wants us to say is don’t do these every day. Right, Trevor?
Trevor Connor 50:00
I was trying to figure out if he was asking that question or if he is referring to the fact that you are going hard, basically, as soon as you’re out the door. So agree with both, I mean all the same rules apply here because you have less time or you’re limited doesn’t mean that you start training badly. So if you’re riding at lunch every day, don’t make everyday hard. A couple of them if that’s your interval work, make it your interval work. It sounds like he’s talking about I have very limited time, this is the only time I can work out, I have 45 minutes. Well, that’s less than optimal. So I think, Yeah, I agree you need a warm up, but this is the case where you go warm ups probably going to be pretty short and get right to the interval work.
Chris Case 50:51
I have the answer. You get a desk cycle. Do your warm up while you’re working for 15 minutes. Right before you take your lunch break-
Chris Case 51:02
Sorry who invited you to this?
Chris Case 51:04
Go out and you’re already warmed up and you don’t have to worry about it. It’s perfect.
Trevor Connor 51:09
We are now getting a desk cycle just so that we can experiment on you.
Chris Case 51:14
Absolutely.
Trevor Connor 51:17
So my suggestion. Yeah, I mean, this is not optimal. But sometimes you have to deal with less than optimal. And my suggestion would be, you know, figure out an interval workout that you can do in that time, you also have to factor in you might be working in a city or not near good roads and if you have 45 minutes, you don’t have time to get to the good roads. So what can you do that’s safe around where you live. So I’m not going to recommend a particular interval workout because I don’t know the circumstances.
Trevor Connor 51:47
But the warm up can be relatively short, I would get a couple, five second sprint’s in, which can really help to open up the legs and get you ready for a harder effort. And then just get to it and know it’s gonna be a little bit miserable because you didn’t get as much of a warm up as you would like.
Chris Case 52:06
I mean, this is effectively every day of my life. I do it twice a day. My commute is between 45 minutes and an hour. If I really go hard. It’s only 35 minutes. And there’s virtually no warm up.
Chris Case 52:19
I think to answer Peters question, yeah, there’s several ways we could interpret it. But yes, you can get an effective workout in 45 minutes if you do it right. You could warm up for 10-15 minutes, then you could do maybe three hill repeats of six minutes each. And then a cool down. And that’s something right? You could do some big gear work in there, warm up, bigger work in the middle, cool down. Or you could just get some more volume by going out and riding steady. Yeah, 45 minutes isn’t ideal, but there are effective ways to utilize that time. And especially if you get the deskcycle and warm up beforehand, you maximize that 45 minutes. Yeah, I did plug it again. I’m sorry.
Trevor Connor 53:11
Chris is looking for a theme to run through this episode, and he just decided a desk cycle is it. Let’s go back, how do you work a desk cycle into fixed gear biking?
Chris Case 53:19
Did you know that Amos is the desk cycle distributor for all of England. He is now actually.
Amos Brumble 53:27
Stop by, try it out, demo units available.
Trevor Connor 53:33
So let’s go back to our question of training by heart rate for gravel races. How’s the desk cycle work into that Chris?
Chris Case 53:39
Ah, well, I mean, clearly, you could get just way more volume if you rode the desk cycle all day long. You might not get much work done.
Trevor Connor 53:48
You actually had an answer, but I’m kind of impressed.
Chris Case 53:52
Yeah, it’s all about the volume.
Trevor Connor 53:53
Do they have the gravel version of the desk?
Chris Case 53:55
They do, yeah. You put it on like a wobbly table and it moves around. Yep. They also have a fixed gear version.
Trevor Connor 54:07
I actually think because it’s pedaling your legs it’s actually a fixed gear
Amos Brumble 54:11
Maybe a fixed gear only
Trevor Connor 54:12
I think we’ve actually covered every scenario, so Mario Cipollini nice quote, we know everything about their wats, their heart rate – of what interests that doesn’t tell us anything about that. What does the desk cycle tell us about you.
Chris Case 54:23
Basically, it tells you, well I don’t want to make fun of people that have a desk cycle, let’s say, it’s pretty dorky. But actually, you know if it’s all you can do, and it helps you and you put your nice cycling socks on and you go on to ride the deskcycle maybe you think you start to think of yourself more of it as an athlete, and that’s a good thing. And then it gets into the aesthetics of being an athlete. So there you go.
Trevor Connor 54:50
So I think you haven’t brought up the Phoenix. Can the Phoenix connect to the desk cycle?
Chris Case 54:55
I mean, the Phoenix I’m sure it could connect to the death cycle. I’m not sure the desk cycle is sophisticated enough to connect back to the Phoenix. Let’s put it that way.
Amos Brumble 55:04
Maybe you could get the footpod.
Chris Case 55:07
Woah what is this footpod? I got to look this up.
Amos Brumble 55:10
Yeah, yeah Garmin makes the footpod for running.
Trevor Connor 55:14
There we go. We have brought the entire episode together, desk cycle is the entire theme. Good job, Chris.
Chris Case 55:26
No problem. I expect the checks to arrive any moment now for the desk cycle.
Amos Brumble 55:32
You know, the other thing with Peters question is I have found that people that use very low volumes of training that he’s talking about that it isn’t exactly terrible that they just go out there and ride really hard for the 45 minutes that they’ve got. They seem to be able to recover from it.
Chris Case 55:47
Yeah, you know that’s another part of it. I do this sort of twice a day, sometimes five days a week. And if you do that, maybe that’s the week when you skip the long weekend ride. This is all, it’s hard to tell somebody how to effectively use this in the context of their greater training plan, because there’s decision making they have to make on their and if you do 45 minute rides every day, and they’re super hard, then yeah, don’t go out and smash yourself on the weekend or do the the weekend group ride where you’re smashing yourself? If you have 45 minutes, three times a week and you do it really easy, then yeah, maybe on the weekend, you have to flip that paradigm around, and you go hard and big and all of that sort of stuff. So the the general answer is yes, you can effectively use that amount of time. But you have to think about it.
Amos Brumble 56:44
I mean, I would highly recommend that they structure that time that they do have.
How to stay motivated in your older age
Chris Case 56:49
So our last question comes from Jim Case, yes, this is my dad. He is a cyclist. He’s been a cyclist for a long time. He’s 78 now, just turned 78. Just did a 78 mile ride for his birthday. He wants to know. “So I’m 78 years old. The races I get to do, they basically don’t exist. How do I stay motivated? How do I stay competitive now that I’m this old, and I don’t have anybody to race with?” Amos, I know you ride with my dad quite a bit. What would you say to him?
Amos Brumble 57:29
I think that, you know, your dad is probably the rider that I most often point to to people that come in to my business, you know, my bike store as a role model to follow. And you know, like, in all the older athletes, I always tell them if you look at Strava, and I have a lot of older athletes in my store, and if you look at Strava now all of a sudden, you’ve got a platform that will point outriders of your own age. And repeatedly when I deal with older athletes, that’s the thing that they want most is just the ability to be, you know, to compare themselves to people that are most similar to themselves. And Strava as a platform is the only one I know of that really does that effectively. So I think it’s an awesome tool for that.
Chris Case 58:16
Very good. Well, Amos was a pleasure. Next time I’m back in Rhode Island. I’ll look you up. We’ll go for a ride
Amos Brumble 58:25
You’re going to ride with me this time.
Chris Case 58:26
I’ll ride with you this time. Well, you know, last time COVID. Hopefully COVID is over by the time I see you again. And we can actually ride with without masks and all of that. So pleasure having you on the show.
Amos Brumble 58:39
It was great. I really look forward to it. I had fun.
Trevor Connor 58:42
It was great to meet you. I really enjoyed this.
Amos Brumble 58:45
Yeah, you’re welcome!
Chris Case 58:48
That was another episode of Fast Talk. As always, we love your feedback. please email us at fasttalk@fasttalklabs.com to record a voice memo on your phone and send it our way. Subscribe to Fast Talk wherever you prefer to find your favorite podcast and be sure to leave us a rating and review. Thoughts and opinions expressed on Fast Talk are those of the individual for Amos Brumble, Trevor Connor, I’m Chris case. Thanks for listening.
