Coach Lauren Vallee talks with us about how cyclists and runners can incorporate the other sport into their training, not only to improve health, but to increase their performance.
Episode Transcript
Rob Pickels 00:04
Hello and welcome to Fast Talk: your source for the science of endurance performance. I’m your host, Rob Pickels, here with Coach Connor. As athletes, it’s easy for us to become purist. Cyclists immedia get sore even at the thought of running and runners cringe at the thought of pedaling in circles. Many of us have had the concept of specificity drilled into our heads and the idea of doing an entirely different sport might seem like a waste of time. The health benefits of cross training have been demonstrated repeatedly, and it’s clear that doing just one sport can lead to imbalances and increase our risk of injury. However, there is a growing body of research supporting a crossover effect across training that may improve the performance in your main sport. Here to talk with us about how to take advantage of this crossover effect is a coach who has no problems with cross training, Lauren Vallee, the owner of Base Tri Fitness. Vallee is a high level athlete, herself, so getting the most out of training and cycling is something she’s very familiar with. She brings her experience to this episode to teach us how to bring another sport into our training in a way that’s going to be positive and beneficial, and not a quick ticket to disaster. Along with Vallee, we talk with cross training experts including physiologist Dr. Bent Ronstadt, retired professional cyclist Brent Bookwalter, and top coaches Neil Henderson and who Xiang Emiri. So put on your shoes and your running shoes and let’s make you fast.
Trevor Connor 01:40
As a cycling coach, it’s really easy – even tempting – to focus on the workouts and the training plans. After all, this is the bread and butter of being a coach, but there’s much more that affects an athlete’s performance. So new this week for Fast Talk Labs Module 8 of the “Craft of Coaching” with Joe Friel unpacks the black box of sports psychology, tapping a diverse group of experts from around the world, including Dr. Andy Kirklin, Julie Emerman, Rob Griffis, and Jeff Trosh. By applying the biopsychosocial model to endurance sports performance, these experts show better ways to consider an athlete stress, how to engage and motivate athletes, and how to help athletes build confidence, resilience, motivation and enjoyment of their sports. So see what’s new in endurance coach in the fasttalklabs.com. Lauren Vallee, thanks for joining us – this is the first time we’ve had you on the show. Heard that you are actually a neighbor of Emma Kate, our content strategist, so very excited to have you come join us for an actual episode.
Lauren Vallee 02:47
Thank you. I appreciate the invitation. And hopefully this is the first of a few visits – would be great.
Rob Pickels 02:55
Yeah, definitely looking forward to it – and if you’re a regular listener of the podcast, you know that Trevor has talked about his back in the past and, you know, Trevor just came back from Tobago, and unfortunately, that pesky back of Trevor has got itself thrown out. So, you know, Lauren, listeners, we’re getting Trevor today in an ibuprofen fueled haze, so, uh, it’s gonna be a great episode.
Trevor Connor 03:19
Yeah, you are seeing my bedroom, because that is as far as I’ve gotten the last two days.
Rob Pickels 03:25
Perfect. So what are we talking about today, Trevor? It’s kind of getting to the offseason for some people, they might be thinking about some other sports. How are those working together?
Trevor Connor 03:35
Well, we’ve talked about this before, and everybody thinks about this, you get to the end of the season, if you’re a cyclist, you’re ready to get off the bike, if you’re a runner, you’re ready to do something different. And we all think about cross-training, which I think is a great thing in the off-season – so that motivated this episode. But really, the more we thought about it, the more we thought a really good question is just “should cyclists be running? And should runners be cycling?” The sports are different, they both have their pros and cons and it’s a valuable question to say, “are they complimentary: are you going to help your cycling by running? Are you going to help your running by cycling?” So we’ll go a little bit into the differences of them. But the whole way through, really, the focus is on why you should or shouldn’t be doing the alternate sport. So with that, like I said, well, we’ll talk about the why throughout the episode – but Lauren, let’s throw it to you – could you give us the very quick two minute of why cyclists should be running and why runners should be cycling or if you think they shouldn’t be why they think they shouldn’t be?
Whether Runners Should Cycle and Cyclists Should Run
Lauren Vallee 04:42
Well, I think that broadly, I think that runners should cycle and I do think that cyclists should run – and there are reasons for that, that we’ll dive into. But first and foremost, I think, perhaps grounding the conversation in what makes an athlete successful and what not really drives performance in any athlete and that’s consistency. And so one of the things that will – I will come back to and probably beat it to death – but anything I can do as a coach to encourage consistency in an athlete is really important and anything that an athlete can do to encourage consistency in their own training – year round really – will be the thing that, over time, really progresses an athlete forward and, and keeps them in sport for longer.
Rob Pickels 05:31
Now, Lauren, correct me if I’m wrong, but you’re primarily a triathlete?
Lauren Vallee 05:35
I am a triathlete, yes.
Rob Pickels 05:37
You know, not gonna lie, is this a little bit of a biased opinion from somebody who’s doing both? Or is there you know, some solid – don’t want to say at least evidence, but anecdotal evidence – that “yeah, this is mutually beneficial for a runner to pick up the bike” and vice versa?
Lauren Vallee 05:52
That is a great question. And I don’t think I’m biased. If I look at anecdotally, I do coach runners who I program cycling for, for recovery, strength building, for variety – actually, I’ll talk about this later too – for mental training and evaluation, which is something that most people wouldn’t think about. And vice versa, I have some cyclist who run and I have found great success actually in those two solos, you know, individual sports, those athletes doing well, when they incorporate at least one other modality.
Rob Pickels 06:28
You know, I’m thinking this episode I might end up being a little bit of a naysayer because recently – because of lack of time – I haven’t been on the bike as much and I have been running and let me tell you, I have been so incredibly sore, that I’m looking for every reason in the world that I should not be running. And – cycling is the only thing that a cyclist can do. But, ah, you know, talking to you and Trevor, I’m not sure I’m gonna come away with that opinion.
Trevor Connor 06:55
So here’s my, here’s my really important question to you: is there training transfer from rolling around your bedroom in your office chair?
Rob Pickels 07:03
(laughs) That’s hamstring training.
Lauren Vallee 07:06
Yeah, it is.
Trevor Connor 07:07
That’s all I have done for the last two days.
Lauren Vallee 07:11
Just as long as you get some mobility, some movement.
Trevor Connor 07:14
Yeah, it has been that. You should have seen me right before this podcast, because I got to my desk, I’m like, “Oh, I forgot my headphones”, so I’ve like rolled around to the chair a good –
Rob Pickels 07:22
Half an hour later.
Trevor Connor 07:23
I’m like “I don’t have the cable for my headphones”, I roll somewhere else, I get the cable. I looked like an eighty-year-old man.
Lauren Vallee 07:30
That’s flexibility and adaptability. That’s, that’s brilliant.
Trevor Connor 07:34
That’s my workout for today. That’s all you’re getting out of me. So let’s dive a little deeper into the differences all with the question of is this a reason to cross-train or reason not to? And I think we have to address what’s a little bit of an elephant in the room – that the naysayers to cross training, which we’ll bring up, which is specificity, specificity, specificity, you need to train very specifically to your sport to get adaptations. And they will show you that the muscles that you use in cycling or in running are very different. So, you can make a solid argument that cross training, you’re not working the same muscles, you’re not going to get that much of a benefit. Now I have a counter argument, this actually comes – I’ll start this off, and then you guys can run with it – this actually comes from Issurin, and and you might recognize that name, he’s the guy who really introduced periodized training to North America, and Europe – and his point was, you train two things: you train skills, which are highly specific, but you also train capacities. So it’s like your aerobic system or your cardiovascular system – and he feels that does transfer, that is not nearly as specific. Before we discussed this question, let’s hear from Coach Neal Henderson and his thoughts on specificity and what does and doesn’t transfer.
Specificity: What Does and Doesn’t Transfer
Neal Henderson 08:58
So metabolic capacity to some degree has a lot of transference from one activity type to another. So if you have fitness from running specifically, you’re going to have some of those fitness benefits from a metabolic point of view when you get on a bike. There are going to be very clear differences though in the exact absolute kind of capacity to perform based on the type of muscle contraction, so if you are a swimmer and you go for a run, your muscles are not going to be used to that eccentric movement as your foot lands when you run and so you might have an energetic capacity to do more work, you may run into a mechanical issue and potentially even start causing cramps because your muscles are being contracted in a way that they are not used to initially but there is some transfer and some of the metabolism in general fitness, though, to have your absolute best performance, you do need to spend time doing the specific activity that you want to perform your best at.
Trevor Connor 09:58
So what do you guys think?
Rob Pickels 09:59
Well, for me as the naysayer, like I said, it’s not specificity, it’s pain, pain, pain, and then good luck arguing against that one with me – but that that point aside, yeah, I do think that we do oftentimes talk about the concept right of energy systems, how are we producing energy, what is our cardiovascular system and the components that make that up, vO2 max and these other physiological variables – and I do think that training in general that is focused on improving those variables is potentially quite transferable across sports, right? We know that runners have very high vO2 maxes and utilizing that to train vO2 max, that’s potentially worthwhile for cyclists – but I do think that we can take this specificity thing and say, “Hey, if you want to be the absolute best cyclists in the world, you can’t do all your training as running”. Right, Chris Froome is not winning the New York City Marathon anytime soon, and vice versa. But you know, Lauren, I’d love to hear from you, especially as somebody who trains athletes who have to cycle and run, you know, is specificity, something that you’re thinking about as a coach and utilizing the two sports in that manner?
Lauren Vallee 11:11
There’s two things I want to address. I’ll address the multisport question and then I want to go back to what Trevor said about benefit. So the first one is, if I understand or remember your question, Rob, it’s, “how do I think about like one discipline impacting the other physiologically?” Is that what you’re asking?
Rob Pickels 11:32
Well, I think, I think in general, what you have is a unique perspective as somebody who has to think about both sports when you’re training your athletes.
Lauren Vallee 11:42
Yeah, so I think with any coaching program for whatever sport you have, again, you have to consider what is the athlete need, what is the requirement of the race. And so in triathlon, a lot of people think of it as a swim, a bike and a run, and that you just need to be fit and swimming fit and cycling fit and running – and that’s a false thought process. And triathlon is really one sport that has three different disciplines that all impact one another, so I can’t be thinking, in isolation, “okay, I need a vO2 max set for my swim, a vO2 max set for my bike and a vO2 max set for my run, then I need a threshold set for my swim, the threshold set for my” – because that would take up your entire week, if I’m thinking for each individual sport, I need to hit each energy system. And so I have to be really intentional with where I put the intensity in a certain session during the week. And so a lot of times what people will call like a gray area or a Zone 3-type effort kind of tempo-y work, I will actually have that type of work done on the run off of the bike, because you’re a little more fatigued off of a hard or long bike ride. And this is actually taking advantage of the fact that you’re a little more fatigued, and it produces really, really good results I’ve found for triathlon racing – so I’m always considering how fatigue will affect what someone can produce and how that impacts the rest of the week. So there’s no right way to do it and I guess the other thing I’ll say is, there are certain athletes who can only run so much in a week, or can only ride so much in a week and so I also have to take that into consideration. And you guys interviewed Rach McBride and my partner Matteo Mercer about Rachel’s success, and Rachel basically riding most of her – most of their training – and, you know, the question was, “how are they doing this?”. And I’ve seen the training that Rach does, and it’s a really great balance of intensity and volume on the bike, and really specific running sessions for them.
Trevor Connor 13:48
Yeah, to continue with that and going back to Issurin’s points about capacities versus skills – when I coach a triathlete, I do think about skills and building those capacities differently. So when I’m thinking about, how do we build that aerobic engine, I figure out what’s the work I want an athlete to do, then I decide, so go, say, I want this many interval sessions in a week, here’s the sort of interval work I want to do, then I’ll decide what disciplines they’re going to do that interval work in. But when it comes to the skills, you have to think about them separately, you can do all the running of the world, that’s not going to improve your swim stroke. So you need to put in the time in the pool learning to improve your swim stroke, you need to improve your running gait. And those are highly specific. You can’t do them in any of the other disciplines.
Rob Pickels 14:36
Yeah, I think that this is a good place to mention a couple of the research studies that I looked at when I was prepping for this and, you know, a knock against all of them is that they’re relatively small subject sizes. I think it’s hard to get a lot of people you know, to convince enough cyclists that running is good to get research subjects there – but um, you know, one of them was done by a researcher named Wallace and they added cycling training into a running program. Now this was in addition to the running that people were doing – so it was an increase in volume – but that increase in volume, even though it was on the bike improved their three kilometer running time trial. So specificity would say that shouldn’t happen but the energy system side of things kind of agrees with that – so that seems like it makes sense. There was another one that came out of maybe Sweden or Norway, I forget which, but a Nordic country, it was a case study on a single elite national level cyclist, and that cyclist in the wintertime when it was too cold to be riding outside, they reduced their cycling training volume, and added in some running intensity, and actually saw improvements in their vO2 max and time trial performance. So again, you know, exactly the same concept that you’re talking about, how do we mix and match these different modalities, and we are seeing benefits in the opposite sport. And then the last one was a research paper on some female recreational runners by Malal, they essentially added some high intensity interval training on the bike and they also saw some improvement in their run performance as well so, you know, the specificity argument should say that “no, none of this is going to happen”. But we have at least three small research studies that say, “yeah, there is some transfer here”.
Lauren Vallee 16:20
It just, I think, to jump on that, I think, if you’re continuing to cycle while you’re adding, riding, and you are still getting specificity of training for cycling – and so if you’re doing easy aerobic runs or short, fast, like 15, second uphill sprints to try and create some power, I think that physiologically that makes sense that there would be some benefit, you know, and vice versa the other way around, too, so as, you know, I think like, Trevor, you said that Chris Froome isn’t going to win the New York City Marathon anytime soon, but if he’s, if he’s, you know, adding short bouts of running into his training, I don’t think that would necessarily be a bad thing – if there was a reason for it. That’s the biggest thing is, like a lot of athletes just add stuff to their program willy-nilly and have no intention or structure – and hopefully, we can address how to put structure to adding a new sport to your training.
Trevor Connor 17:11
And I’m really looking forward to diving into that – and to that point, you know, I think one reason, this goes back to Izzran and he made a really good point in his review of cross training, that goes to, again, to actually specificity and he flipped the specificity argument. It showed that overtraining – and particularly burnout – actually is specific so you can get to a point where you don’t want to look at a bike again but you can feel fresh as a daisy when you put on the running shoes and go out for a run. So he made a really good point, particularly for athletes like Chris Froome, that if you’re trying to build an overload, spending a ton of time on the bike might push you into that overtrained or burned out state. Replacing some of that with running may still give you that overload without the risk of burnout.
Lauren Vallee 18:00
Beautifully said, I think that I agree very much with that.
Physiology of Cycling and Running
Rob Pickels 18:04
Let’s take this conversation a little bit deeper on the physiological side of things. We know that cycling and running are both aerobic activities, right, but you know, Trevor, what are your thoughts on how, how are cycling and running impacting the aerobic system in different ways?
Trevor Connor 18:21
So one thing that I think is really important that came up – even some of the studies you just mentioned – is they’ve shown that if you can match intensity, so we do have now running power meters and cycling power meters so you can you can match by power, that running seems to work the cardiovascular system better, seems to have more of an impact on the vO2 max. You also see greater fat oxidization and higher metabolic demand – so there is an argument that you’re going to see greater cardiovascular gains running in less time. So it’s also more efficient, which is a real good argument for cyclists to include running.
Rob Pickels 19:00
Yeah, and that’s probably really related to the amount of muscle mass it’s active while you’re running, right, you have your entire lower body, you have your core musculature providing support, you have your upper body is swinging – I think oftentimes you’re going to see increase in vO2 max or an increase in vO2 values for runners than you will in cyclists.
Trevor Connor 19:21
You know, the other side of this which contributes to the efficiency is, you do see that running enhances conversion to fiber type to the type one from type two, which is better for your aerobic engine.
Rob Pickels 19:33
The other thing that I think you’ll see on efficiency is that musculotendinous stiffness, right, from running, that the power that you’re applying through the soft tissue in your body is maybe reaching the pedals a little bit more directly if you have some tighter tendons and your muscle activity is better.
Trevor Connor 19:54
So just to finish out this conversation of the differences that you see between these two sports, I think there’s two really important ones that do make a good argument for why cyclists should be running and why runners should be cycling. And that’s some of the disadvantages you see in each sport. So running has a lot more eccentric activity in it, which is that when the muscle is contracting, well, it’s actually lengthening – that happens every time you impact the ground because you’re literally, your leg is acting as a brake, so that muscles lengthening but it’s also trying to stop you so it’s contracted. What that means is that running produces a lot more damage, it has a lot greater risk for injury – and going back to that study that Rob talked about, with the female runners doing the 3000 meter run – what are their explanations for why you didn’t see the women who did a lot of run intervals improve was because of that injury and the fatigue caused from all that damage. They just couldn’t adapt. They couldn’t handle all the high intensity work and so they weren’t able to improve, even though they were doing a ton of high intensity running training. So that’s the thing that you have to be careful about with running. The other side of that is, of course, you see a lot more inflammation and DOMS in running than you would in cycling.
Rob Pickels 21:18
On the flip side of that, a question that I’ve had that I have not seen research from is does that eccentric movement in running lead to increase in strength in the musculature that you don’t get, right? And hopefully you read something I wasn’t able to but I could almost see that as being beneficial to cycling, despite the fact that it increases injury risk, like you’re mentioning.
Trevor Connor 21:41
That was actually a chapter written by a George A. Comnos that I read ahead of this and it was an explanation for why cyclists run. And basically the way he explained it is, the running improves muscular endurance, the durability of the muscles – co because cycling is only a concentric motion, you can get a little bit of a fragility in the cyclists legs, if they’re not doing any sort of eccentric motion. The other danger that you have a cyclist is you need that impact to build and keep your bones strong so you do see a loss of bone mineral density in cyclists. So if all you’re ever doing is riding your bike, you’re actually going to build this fragility. And either running or getting in the weight room is going to help a lot with that.
Rob Pickels 22:27
Awesome, thanks. I’m glad that you were able to read that.
Trevor Connor 22:29
As we just pointed out, there are dangers to just riding or just running. As we discussed in this next clip with Brent Bookwalter, health is one of the most important reasons to cross-train. So did you do any sort of cross training? Did you run, ski – do any sort of other endurance sports?
Brent Bookwalter 22:48
Not as much as I would have liked, which goes back to that, that shrinking offseason window, and that preseason window just gets so short. And I think our bodies become so specialized by just riding, riding, riding through the year, being at the stage races where we’re not even walking around much. You know, you come into the offseason, everyone’s different. Some guys that maybe hit a running background, you know, they could transition into that quite quick and actually get to the point where they’re quote “training”. But for me, the years that I would do some running, for instance, you know about the time where I finally – if I wanted to build up to it slowly to where I wouldn’t get injured, by the time I got to the point where I could actually feel like I was getting some aerobic benefit from running and my muscles had adapted, then it’s like time, there’s no time left, then it’s time to race again, or, you know, the training loads on the bike is going up – so I didn’t do much bike, I would have loved to ski more but I didn’t, mainly out of fear for getting hurt. I think…yeah, for me, the main variation I did was definitely to do some hiking, which I think was really good, good for bone density and good for that, that skeletal system, gradually load the pack a little more on the back throughout that window – yeah, it feels good to do something different, slow down and look around. And then yeah, for me, it was still biking but the mountain bike was always a huge part of that year, too, which is more dynamic and definitely different than grinding away on the road bike.
Trevor Connor 24:10
So for people who don’t have as long a race season as you and have a little more time, do you think there is a value to doing other endurance sports? Do you think it will help their cycling, help their health?
Brent Bookwalter 24:21
I think it’ll definitely help their health. And I think it will help their cycling by helping their health. I think especially – I’m 38 years old now and I saw this happen with myself through my career that the body is not as pliable as it used to be and it doesn’t come back from injury as fast as it does before. And that’s sort of novel stimulus and that dynamic load that you can put on the body just keeps it – it keeps the body guessing and keeps the body adapting and it keeps a viable and moldable so that when you know we do experience something different, it can actually adapt. So I wouldn’t say that the crossover endurance work would – I don’t believe that if you run a bunch in the offseason, all of a sudden you’re gonna get on the bike the next year and you know, just because of that have your best year ever, be able to do a lot more power and drop all your friends and ride all your best times on your climbs. But I do think it’s part of the mental and physical component to staying healthy and diversified and balanced and that is performance once it comes time for bike season
Trevor Connor 25:20
Interesting that you bring up, as you get older, there’s probably a value in diversifying like that and focusing a little more on the health.
Brent Bookwalter 25:28
Yeah and really don’t wait till you get older because it’s very much a “use-it-or-lose-it”, it’s hard to learn new tricks as we get older and – if I could do anything different in hindsight now, like currently right now I’m reallyfalling in love with like the ski up, ski down, the ski revolution in the Pyrenees is really big right now. And it’s a wonder – it’s an awesome workout – it’s a great way to be in the winter, you have the mountains and snow, obviously – but um, yeah, it’s, uh, I have a little bit of an alpine skiing background so I can get down safely. Might be different from someone who’s never skied before, but, but yeah, utilizing that, yeah, new fresh movement pathways and change of environment too. I think it’s good to mix it up.
Why Cyclists Should Run
Trevor Connor 26:16
Just like their athletes, all coaches have strengths and weaknesses. Most coaches are pretty good at workouts and training plans, but there’s so much more that affects an athlete’s performance. In “The Craft of Coaching”, legendary endurance sports coach Joe Friel admits his own greatest weakness as a coach: the mental side of sport. So for the newest part of “The Craft of Coaching” series, Joe Friel taps a diverse group of experts around the world to unlock the black box of sports performance. See what’s new in endurance coaching at fasttalklabs.com. So, basically, to summarize, the reasons a cyclist would want to include running is, one, maintain that bone mineral density, the greater cardiovascular gains, you can get more efficiency of time, your 30 minute run is gonna give you the equivalent of like an hour, hour and a half ride on the bike, and a little better muscle balance – so there’s a lot of reasons why cyclists should run. But now let’s throw this over to you, how should a cyclist incorporate running and since we’re in the offseason right now, what’s your suggestions for a cyclist who is taking a bit of a break from cycling, and is thinking about including running for the next month?
Lauren Vallee 27:31
I think you hit the nail on the head in terms of why a cyclist might run. And so when a cyclist is thinking about incorporating running into their program, a couple of things stand out. Biomechanically, when one rides a bike, you’re in hip flexion and when we’re running, you’re creating power through hip extension – and that is not typically a movement pattern that if you’re only cycling that you are used to, except when you’re walking. And so the first thing is, a cyclist wants to understand that “I may have this big aerobic engine and when I go to run, I am learning a new skill”. Running as a sport, it seems quite simple, you just need running shoes, but there are things to think about. So I’ll start with that hip flexion position where you’re creating power on the bike and why it’s important to understand cognitively what’s happening when you’re running is run speed as a function of stride length and turnover, or cadence. And in order to increase stride length to go faster, a lot of cyclists will kick their leg out in front of them, because they’re used to being in hip flexion. And they don’t have that great range of motion to actually extend their leg behind them and drive their leg back using their glute and firing in that position. So it may be that if you’re a cyclist and starting to run, I would encourage you to start with, if you can aim for, you know, 90 strides, single foot strides, per minute, that’s great. And I can walk you through how you actually count that – but watches, like Garmins will tell you approximately what your turnover is – but taking short, choppy steps in the beginning and running pretty light is going to be important for two reasons: what I just said about hip extension and developing the range of motion that you’re gonna need and the second is developing the resilience and durability in the tendons and the ligaments of your body as you’re starting to run whereas we don’t have the same strain on your body when you’re cycling.
Trevor Connor 29:25
So, yeah, actually, that’s really interesting – I want to ask you more about that – so I can tell you as a cyclist who in the offseason always puts on the running shoes, I always end up getting a lot of pain in my Achilles and I can tell you, I am a – I guess what you’d call a foot dragger, I don’t really lift my feet off the ground, I just kind of shuffle run? What should I – or any cyclists like me – how should we improve that? What should we be focusing on as we run?
Lauren Vallee 29:55
So there’s nothing wrong with shuffling – and actually if you’re using using running just as a supplement to get some more cardiovascular training, some variety, it’s not a problem necessarily to shuffle. Actually a lot of triathletes, even top triathletes who are running off the bike do something called an “Ironman shuffle” – their feet stay quite low, they’re not like track runners where their knees are driving straightforward really high, and they have this high heel recovery. And so, the first thing I would say is, you may just need to work on short bouts of hard running, possibly uphill, so you know, we’ve got all these wonderful hills, you could do a warm up nice and easy – and I don’t know what your frequency is of how often you run – how often do you run? We’ll just make this real, we’ll grounded in reality: how often do you run?
Trevor Connor 30:44
So we’re about to move into – we’re in the middle of October right now and I would say from middle of October to the end of November, I’ll probably run about four times a week, through the winter I’ll keep up running about once a week.
Lauren Vallee 30:58
So I imagine one of those is just nice, slow, easy, aerobic shuffle, perfect, working on your cadence like turnover, and then I would make one of those runs – again, I don’t know the duration of your, like what your weekly volume would be – but you might do something like a 45 minute run with a 15 minute warm up and then anywhere from 5, building your way up to say 10 by 20 second efforts up a pretty steep hill and focusing on driving your heel and foot back behind you while keeping your cadence up – that’s going to create some some big power and it’s gonna, this is gonna sound counterintuitive, but it’s a little bit easier on your body to tolerate that if you’re trying to create power. Less pounding really.
Trevor Connor 31:40
Well, it also has some intuitive sense that that’s closer to the cycling motion when you’re running up hills.
Lauren Vallee 31:45
Absolutely. Yep.
Rob Pickels 31:46
Lauren, I think it’s really interesting that one of the first issues that you identify is this hip flexion side of things, and I know that that affects me greatly. I spend a lot of days sitting in an office chair, I spend a lot of time riding my bike. And I really struggle with hip extension when I run. My hip flexors are tight, my quads are tight and I ended up ultimately straining or overworking muscles like my iliacus and my psoas and that oftentimes for me leads to lower back and SI-joint pain – so I know for me, personally, it’s hugely important that I spend a lot of time massaging my quads, stretching those hip flexors, because you’re exactly right – when I run, especially when I run fast and especially when I run downhill on a trail, and my leg is trying to carry further behind me – it is just wrenching on my lower back that entire time.
Lauren Vallee 32:38
I’m so glad you brought this up because this is something that – again, imagine a person who rides their bike all the time, like you, and they want to start running and they, because they have this giant aerobic engine, they’re like, “Oh, I’m gonna go out and run for an hour” as their first run and they’re gonna take that first 20 minutes out like a bat out of hell and do so much damage – not only to like, like, not only to their body, but also just psychologically like, “I should be able to do this”. Yes, physiologically, you can ride your bike for six hours, Rob, I’m sure. But going out and running for an hour right out of the gate – that’s gonna set you up for exactly what you’re talking about. And so, for a cyclist, before you start running, it really makes sense to do some really simple dynamic stretching at the hip joint, trying to get yourself into extension. A really simple thing that I can describe here without having to demonstrate it would be just a single leg bridge. So you’re lying on your back, you pull one knee into your chest, and then you just lift your hips up – really trying to squeeze the glute of the leg where the foot is on the ground, just to kind of try and turn on your glutes because you really want to use your glutes when you’re running. And we are very quad-centric when you’re on a bike – and it depends on what kind of bike and where you are in relationship to the bottom bracket – but yeah, you can turn your glutes on before you go running, that’s helpful, and doing a runner’s stretch, where you’re in like a deep lunge position, you’re kneeling, one leg is bent at 90 degrees and the back leg is on the back… the outstretched leg, that knee is on the ground, so you’re in like a deep lunge position. And if you can actually squeeze the glutes of the quad that is, excuse me, of the leg that’s behind you, that will also teach your glute to fire when your leg is in hip extension, which is really simple and easy to do.
Rob Pickels 34:29
Yeah, I think that’s absolutely great advice and I think that’s something that everyone can be incorporating into their training when they’re trying to move more into the running side of things. Lauren, something that you mentioned that was interesting to me and really resonated was, you’re right, I can go out for a six hour bike ride and an hour long run is really tough. But what’s really interesting with me for running is how quickly things fall apart when I’m out there. It seems like I can be a little bit tired in the middle of a three hour, six hour long bike ride and I’m not that much more tired by the time I get back. Thirty minutes into a run, I can be like, “Oh, I’m feeling this a little bit ” and as I turn around and realize I have that thirty minutes to run back home – by the time I get home, I am dead tired, I can barely move, but I’m also really sore. It’s incredible how quickly running can just flip you upside down.
Trevor Connor 35:22
So I need to, very quickly, before you answer this, share one of my favorite quotes – I asked the chiropractor for the Canadian National Cycling Team what was the busiest time of year for him? And he went “hands down October”. I said, “Why is that?”, and he goes, “because you get a bunch of cyclists who have the endurance to run a marathon and the knees and neuro-muscular structure to run about 10 minutes”. They go to get the marathon.
Lauren Vallee 35:46
You know that, Trevor, it’s a combination of what you guys talked about when you talk about the physiology and the biomechanical difference between running and cycling – it’s the eccentric load – you need the skill to run efficiently and effectively. And if you are a coach who’s going to prescribe running for a cyclist, it’s your responsibility to make sure you talk to your athletes about proper run technique, talking about cadence, maybe even getting a video of your athlete running. It’s malpractice as a coach just say, “yeah, go ahead and go out and run, I trust that you know how to do it right.” Yeah, yes, it is simple, we grew up running in gym class, but a lot of people as adults, adult onset runners, can be quite clueless about running.
Counting Cadence
Rob Pickels 36:27
Yeah, Lauren, I’d love to get your advice on two things here. One, previously, you mentioned counting cadence, and you brought it up again here, how does somebody go about counting their cadence if they don’t have a fancy Garmin watch and they’re not running with their, you know, head unit in their hand?
Lauren Vallee 36:43
Yeah, that’s a great question and the way that you do it is you just count how many times one foot hits the ground in 20 seconds, and then you multiply that by three, and that gives you your single foot strides per minute.
Rob Pickels 36:56
And you’re looking for a range of about 90, correct?
Lauren Vallee 36:59
About 90. Newer runners typically will be in the 80s, low 80s, sometimes even under that and so if you are new to running, and you’re finding yourself in this, in the high 70s, low 80s, and you really busted at the end of a run, and you’re like “God, I feel terrible” – like, like you said, Rob, you come back from your run, and you’re like, “I am just destroyed, I’m shattered from this hour run” – do an assessment of your cadence about every 10 minutes, if you’re running for an hour, and check in and see does it decrease as the run goes on. And it’s totally fine to shorten your stride in order to keep your cadence higher. It’s when you get into overstriding to create your speed or to maintain your speed that that’s where you’re going to do some more damage to your bones and joints because either you’re overstriding or, again, your cadence is dropping, and you’re just spending a lot of time on the ground, Laura.
Rob Pickels 37:51
Lauren, the other question I wanted to ask you, you gave some great advice for stretching for us, you know, hip flexor individuals that are out there. Are there other maybe prehab exercises, strength training, stretching that cyclists should be considering – because, you know, the two movements are pretty different and I think that the load on your body is a little different. So how do we keep people safe?
Cross-training with Safety in Mind
Lauren Vallee 38:12
Well, there’s two ways that I can answer it. The first is, in general, cyclists should be doing some sort of strength training, particularly Masters athletes, and post- and perimenopausal athletes – huge. Lifting heavy weights is something that should be incorporated – if you’re not sure where to start with that, hire a strength coach, talk to your coach and get good guidance – don’t just rely on you know, “Oh, I heard this woman on Fast Talk Labs who said I need to strength train so I’m going to start powerlifting in the gym” – get professional guidance. So that’s the first thing and then other prehab activities, things to do – any time that you can move a joint through a range of motion and be able to fire the muscles that are associated with the joint that’s moving with awareness, there’s this like neuromuscular activation thing that happens when you think about “okay, I’m going to do the runner stretch, and I’m going to think about flexing my glutes while I’m in this stretch”. What’ll happen is you’ll actually feel the stretch intensify a little bit and then eventually the muscle will relax. So any sort of dynamic stretching, there are so many routines that you can find on YouTube for either the hip opening routine, but keep it simple and keep it something that you can do – the thing is, I think a lot of people have these grand plans like “Oh, I’m gonna start doing my mobility routine now and it’s, it takes 45 minutes to do and then I’m left with 15 minutes to run” and you might be an athlete who needs to do that, but even 15 minutes is better than seven minutes. Seven minutes is better than five minutes, five minutes is better than nothing.
Rob Pickels 39:47
Yeah, I know if, you know – I’m gonna plug YouTube again here – YouTube is just so good for finding out how to fix your dishwasher and maybe how to do, maybe how to do some exercises to keep yourself safe with running, but I know whenever I am in physical therapy, because I started running, oftentimes they just harp on my, on my hip stability muscles, right that my quads can be really strong, my calves can be really strong, but the little muscles in your hip and doing these banded monster walks, and everything else seemed like they’re really important. So I would direct people, either to a physical therapist or to a knowledgeable coach and if you don’t have those two, then I guess you can, you can stoop to YouTube – but you know, get some good practical advice on some simple exercises – and like you’re saying, because if you have to do an hour and a half of strength training before you go out and do your run, you’re never going to do your strength training, so…
Lauren Vallee 40:40
Totally agree. Here’s, here’s something really simple too, Rob, that any person listening can do: the next time you’re on the phone, just balance on one leg – 10 seconds, one leg, 10 seconds, the other, do some hip adduction, and abduction, just standing there, some hip extension – it’s really quite powerful to pair a habit with something you normally do. So if you’re on the phone, just start doing some isometric holds, that really is helpful too.
Trevor Connor 41:07
Yeah, I’ve got one of those wobble boards in my kitchen and when I’m cooking, I’ll actually just stand on it.
Rob Pickels 41:11
I’m going to warn you because I have a rolling – I have a rolling balance board under my desk and sometimes I do it in meetings, and sometimes I fall off of it when I’m in a meeting – so it’s entertainment for everybody. Yeah. That’s amazing.
Trevor Connor 41:13
So I want to take us a slightly different direction, because – I will say, the worst running off-season I ever had, I won a set of those barefoot five fingered shoes –
Lauren Vallee 41:39
Oh, boy.
Trevor Connor 41:40
In a raffle. At the time, the biomechanics lab I was working at, we were doing a study on the shoe so I pulled the classic scientist and said, “Oh, I’ll experiment on myself”.
Rob Pickels 41:49
Was this like 2003, maybe? Just a guess?
Trevor Connor 41:54
2010.
Lauren Vallee 41:55
Yeah I was gonna say, more like 2010.
Rob Pickels 41:56
Man, I was –
Running Footwear for Cyclists
Trevor Connor 41:58
Worst experience of my life so the question I have for you – we have a cyclist who has been convinced by this – they haven’t done a lot of running, what your recommendations on good footwear, what should they be looking for?
Lauren Vallee 42:11
The first thing that I would say is make sure you go to a reputable run store – I’m big on supporting locally-owned run stores and typically, there are really talented runners that work at these stores – and just be honest with them, like, “Hey, I’m getting into running, I don’t know the first thing about what shoe I should get”, what you really want to make sure that you do is if you’re a person that needs a stability shoe, which means there’s just a rigid support on the inside of the shoe, in the medial part of the shoe, that you run in a stability shoe that doesn’t mean that anything’s wrong with you, I have friends that I’ve trained with forever, who refuse to our stability shoe, that clearly need a stability shoe that are injured because they’re not running in a stability shoe – and they’re like, I just think that that’s goofy – and to me, I’m like, “don’t you want to be injury free, put on the darn stability shoes, if you need them, I run into stability shoe”. And so again, a stability shoe is just going to correct overpronation. And then I really would start with something that is more substantial than less substantial. I would not run in a lightweight trainer if you’re new to running. I would certainly not buy a performance shoe like the Vaporfly or the Endorphin Pro – those are great shoes that are made for racing and for specific speed workouts, if you’re training, to perform an a marathon, a 5k, something like that – but if you’re just working on general fitness and you want to stay safe and healthy, a cushioned trainer is fine. And if your local run shoe store employees are taking the time to answer all your questions, that’s a good sign. If they’re pushing you into a shoe versus another one, that’s not the best sign and just follow your gut, it should feel – the shoe should feel good under foot, you should be able to take them for a little shuffle outside or maybe even in the store – again, most run shoe stores are really competent at getting runners in the right shoe – but it may take a couple of different tries. You may try a shoe may feel great in the store and it may be terrible two or three runs in. Take it back, get another one.
Rob Pickels 44:16
Yeah, as somebody who used to actually manage a Fleet Feet Sports when I was in grad school and who’s going to –
Lauren Vallee 44:21
You worked at a Fleet Feet!
Rob Pickels 44:22
And who’s going to a boot fitter, a ski boot fitter after this, there’s definitely times where you should rely on experts and this is one of them. For somebody who hasn’t actually been to a running store and been fit by knowledgeable reputable runners, the process is really cool actually how you know they’ll understand your foot, they’ll probably get you up on the treadmill, maybe in a neutral shoe, they could watch you run, they could get insight into what you’re doing. And then they can make individualized recommendations for you and then beyond that, it becomes about what’s the most comfortable thing for you. If somebody looks at you when you walk in and they pull something off the wall and it’s red, It’s shiny, they hand it to you and say it’s perfect – they’re wrong, you should probably walk out of that store. But the people that take the time to understand you – you’re probably going to get a pretty good recommendation.
Trevor Connor 45:09
That’s something else I’ll add is we all have different shaped foots and every shoe manufacturer has a little bit of a bias towards one shape or another which means you might have a friend who says they’re in Sauconys and they absolutely love their Sauconys – and those shoes might be perfect for them – but they might be miserable for you. So don’t just go out and buy what your friends are buying, go and see that expert it can make, help you find the right shoe for your shape.
Lauren Vallee 45:37
A great comparison to cycling is none of us ride the same saddle.
Trevor Connor 45:41
As I discussed in this next clip with my old coach, Houshang Amiri, one of the best reasons for cyclists to run is simply to do something different.
Houshang Amiri 45:50
I am a big believer of cross training and definitely changing a sport in offseason is very important. There are some sports that are very identical muscle group, like a cross-country skiing is good for cycling. And the athletes who they have a potential to in cross country skiing offseason, definitely, I suggest to do them. And they – in general, yes, I’m believer on cross training and moving to different sports than from cycling to develop same energy system or strength component.
Trevor Connor 46:26
What do you feel are the benefits you get from using those other sports?
Houshang Amiri 46:30
It’s a good way to get away from this for the – for maybe 11 months – and to do something different. It’s just different motivation and, especially – you remember we were, when you were at the Training Center, we used to go up snowshoeing and hiking and those are just different ways to get better offseason without question.
Trevor Connor 46:59
So I guess the last question I want to hit you here with – we talked a lot about the offseason, but let’s say a cyclist wants to keep running, even when they’re back to regular training on the bike. And I’ll just throw in very quickly here, I would say it’s most important to run in the offseason and during the base season – because remember, running really helps that cardiovascular system, that’s what you’re trying to work in the base season – and also remember, as you get closer and closer to race season, specificity does become more important. So you don’t necessarily want to be doing a lot of running two weeks before your most important cycling race. But with that in mind, what are your recommendations if a cyclist says “you’ve convinced me, I want to keep running even when I’m back to training on the bike?” How do they incorporate it into their weekly plan?
Lauren Vallee 47:48
The first thing is to understand where the key workouts are in the athlete’s cycling program and being really, again, intentional in where you put the running because, again, the impact and damage that is going to happen to the muscle tissue may impact the cycling that you’re going to do the next day. So if you have, let’s say a hard bike ride scheduled for Tuesday, and then you’ve got another like, say a tempo ride or something on Thursday, you could reasonably schedule like a 15 to 30 minute easy, easy, easy shuffle between those two sessions, that shouldn’t be too big of a problem. And this is where, if you’re going to incorporate running into your training, you have to have a sense of your own psychology as an athlete. Are you the type of person who can hold back and be disciplined and run an aerobic, very easy shuffle and be confident that no one is judging you when they drive by you on the street that you are shuffling – and if you can do that, I really think that there’s a way to incorporate running pretty much at any time throughout the week. But you could do it as a second session of the day, if you have a hard workout in the morning, you might do a short shakeout, 15 minute run in the afternoon just for variety, and some stretching, if you’re going to do some strength training in your week, you could use the running as warmup for strength training 10, 15 minutes, it doesn’t need to be a huge long thing. But even 10 minutes of running is going to maintain the eccentric load on your body, you’re still getting that exposure, and it’s not going to take – 10 minutes isn’t going to take much away from you at all if you’re training, you know, six days a week cycling.
Rob Pickels 49:24
Yeah, I think something that’s important to point out here is it’s best to incorporate the running into the cycle training when you’re accustomed to running because initially when you’re bringing the running into your program in the offseason, it’s going to be okay that your body isn’t used to it, you can ease into it slowly, you’re going to have a lot of muscle soreness. If you tried to bring that up when you are actually training on the cycling side, that muscle soreness that you’re going to get from incorporating running is probably going to take away from any bike things that you would do so – you know Lauren, in your experience, how long are we talking to just get used to running? Is that four weeks, or eight weeks, or is it – ?
Lauren Vallee 50:03
It’s athlete dependent. I would say that anywhere from four to six weeks is probably a good range to expect, like, “oh, this could feel terrible for four weeks, could feel terrible for six”, but you may be an outlier and you may feel fine in two weeks, or you may feel fine never. There’s some people who just never feel good running and that’s, that’s all right. And so I think the biggest thing to understand early, early, early on when you’re starting to incorporate running into your training is discipline and being very light on intensity is really important. Focusing on a tall posture, focusing on the cadence – if you just had a metronome set it, you know, 180 beats or 90 beats for a single foot strike, and you just tried to match that for 15 minutes, that is very challenging for most new runners. And if you know your psychology that you’re like, “No, I’m gonna go out and I’m gonna blast myself for the first 30 minute run that I do ever”, force yourself to do a run-walk, 20 seconds of running, and then 1 minute 40 power-walking, and again, if you do that either way, however you end up programming it, give yourself time to kind of feel terrible. As you recover from these things, make sure you’re getting protein, enough protein every day to recover from it. And again, I agree that that incorporating a new sport to your training plan needs to happen at a low risk time in your training year. So post season is a great time to start doing that.
Rob Pickels 51:30
Yeah, I think that it’s interesting, I’m trying to think about how I can incorporate this running into my training – and I think that’s something I might do is try to leverage that increased vO2, that increase oxygen consumption that happens during the running and – you know, especially when I start picking up training, again, maybe not when I need to be more specific later in my season but in the beginning of my cycling season, I might replace some of those four to eight minute vO2 max type efforts with some running workouts, it’d be really interesting to kind of push my oxygen consumption that much harder than I probably could do if I was riding the trainer in the garage in the middle of winter.
Lauren Vallee 52:07
Certainly, and I think that again, as long as there’s intentionality behind it, and structure and as long as you have time to adjust if anything needs to be adjusted, if you realize, “Oh, this isn’t transferring the way that I thought”, or “wow, I am really adapting” and this really works for you as an athlete, then you can make choices on how the rest of the season looks and that I think is the really important part, that no athlete is the same and the exercise science is so helpful to undergird anybody’s training program and coaching. But it should – it should help inform directions that we take as athletes – but it shouldn’t dictate any direction that we take.
How Should Runners Incorporate Cycling?
Trevor Connor 52:47
So let’s flip this around and talk about runners and how runners can incorporate cycling into their training – and we talked about this a while ago, but just as a reminder – there are real benefits for runners to get on the bike and the biggest one being, you’re gonna see less muscle damage, less fatigue, less inflammation and a lower risk of injury, which all these are very, very important to runners and remember that study that Rob pointed out where these female runners that really weren’t able to improve their performance in a 3000 meter run because all the run work they were doing was causing so much damage and fatigue. This is a good point to hear from legendary physiologist Bent Ronnestad and his thoughts on one of the biggest benefits of cycling for athletes and other endurance sports: increasing their volume. Do you feel there is a crossover effect?
Bent Ronnestad 53:42
At least there is some theoretical advantages of it by – you can be able, especially maybe if you are a runner, you can increase the amount, the volume of endurance training both by cycling and for instance, cross country skiing. So you can do more hours training and also get slightly different stimuli as well as my, when you’re doing cross country skiing or Nordic walking or you use your arms, the odds are indicating that you might stress the cardiovascular system to a larger extent so – so for sure, there is some potential benefits or cross training.
Rob Pickels 54:28
An interesting point to bring up here, Trevor, I know an elite runner back in the day, a guy named James Kearney, who incorporated cycling training so much into his bike training that – if you’re looking at the Strava, like top 10 list for Flagstaff, he is up there because he was like 130 pound runner that could just fly uphill on his bike and so there are elite people who are using this exact structure for their training.
Trevor Connor 54:56
So, Lauren, let’s throw it to you and how do you recommend a runner or incorporate cycling into their training.
Lauren Vallee 55:03
So the first thing that I’ll start with is – you said, Trevor, that there’s a lower risk of injury with cycling and I tend to agree, however, I have to make it clear that when someone is cycling, you know, there are three points of contact of the body, there’s your undercarriage, your feet, and your hands and if you are not properly fitted on a bike, or an indoor spin bike or mountain bike, whatever bike you may be riding on, there is a huge risk for overuse injuries if you’re not fitted correctly. So first and foremost, yes, if you are properly fit on a bike, low risk for injury, there are many people that you’ll see out on the roads who will have terrible compromised bike fit positions so if you’re going to start riding, and you have a bike and you’re going to go ride outside, make sure that you have somebody who is knowledgeable and trained in bike fitting take a look at your bike fit. It could be as simple as – there are services online to where you can take a video of you on your bike, on a trainer, send it in and they can, you know, make the adjustments virtually or there are bike fitters nearly everywhere now, but make sure that they come highly recommended and go get fit, number one. And as a coach, if you’re coaching someone who’s a runner to start cycling, it is your responsibility to make sure they understand how to set up either a spin bike or their own bike so that it is safe for them to ride. And to incorporate cycling, it’s a little bit easier because there’s less damage that’s this leftover as opposed to running, you’re gonna have a lot more muscular damage – cycling, it’s gonna feel pretty good, for the most part. It might take a little bit of time to get your – I keep using the word undercarriage – used to the saddle and for anyone who doesn’t know about cycling, do not wear underwear underneath your cycling shorts. And get a good share of – could be stylish, very painful. And you want to have a good pair of cycling shorts and also use some shammy cream so for anyone who is that new to cycling, that is an important thing to understand. So incorporating cycling, the first thing to keep in mind is that cycling is a great recovery activity. It’s a great way to incorporate and get more volume in in a week that is not going to pound you to the ground. It’s a good way to work on intensity, particularly if you are a Masters athlete who may only be able to run four days a week, I was actually – to this point, I was talking to Mark Plotches who’s a local physical therapist, World Champion marathoner – think his best marathon time’s a 2:08 and that was pre-supershoe era – and, Mark is a great guy, and we were talking that I was coming on this podcast and he, he just chimed in, and he was like “cycling was one of the staples of my training”. And you know, he had a long run on Tuesdays, and then a tempo run, I think on Friday, something like that and he said that his second session each of those days was like a two hour easy spin. And so what that does, not only does it give you more time that you’re asking your mitochondria to do something, you’re like, “Hey, guys, let’s get the aerobic system firing here”. But you’re also moving around all of that damage, remains of the damage that you did in the run, it’s going to help recovery, you might feel tired, but if you just spinning, that’s not a big deal.
Trevor Connor 58:22
That was gonna be my one recommendation which is, an easy bike ride and an easy run or not the same. An easy bike ride, there’s a ton of research showing that it helps recover, it helps the immune system do its job. An easy run, even if you’re going slow, you still have that eccentric motion, you’re still going to be doing some damage, you’re still going to be promoting some inflammation, so doing an easy bike ride after you do some running interval or the day after you do some running intervals is going to be complimentary. Do an easy run the next day may actually delay your recovery from that those running intervals.
Lauren Vallee 58:59
Certainly.
Rob Pickels 59:00
A trend that I’m hearing from both of you that I’m noticing on the cyclists choosing to run side, we’re talking a lot about that being an offseason, maybe into the beginning of your season type of activity. But on the running side of things, it seems like – and Lauren, correct me if I’m wrong – but it seems like what I’m taking away from this part of the conversation is cycling is something that can be incorporated into a runners training maybe throughout the year and they shouldn’t be looking at it like an offseason activity like we’re just talking about for the cyclist.
Lauren Vallee 59:32
I think that’s pretty spot on to what I’ve been saying and I think there’s a point that I’m going to add to this and this is that competitive runners may fly to different competitions. And the worst thing a runner can do off of a plane flight is go run. You’re dehydrated, you’ve been sitting, you, you know, been in hip flexion and your hamstrings are shortened from sitting however long – and so using cycling, doing an easy cycle or a water run or something that’s very low impact is huge, like getting the body mobilized, moving, blood flow, all of that – and you can do that year round. And again, like you said, Rob, you picked up on the trend that we’re saying cycling is something that can happen at any time in a runners year. And it doesn’t necessarily have to be in the offseason, but certainly the offseason is the time to figure out your equipment, make sure you’re fit correctly on your bike, establishing what your heart rate zones may be, if you’re going to use heart rate, things like that. And just making sure you have the fine details that you need for cycling that you don’t really need for running, you just need your pair of running shoes for running.
Rob Pickels 1:00:37
Yeah, and thinking about the benefits and the pros and the cons that cycling and running have, you know, we brought up that running has a higher oxygen consumption and I brought up doing vO2 max sort of efforts are running as opposed to on the bike. But the recommendation almost feels like the opposite on the cycling side of things, that for a runner, riding their bike is a great way to do active recovery and maybe a great way to increase their training volume without the stress on their body, so focusing more on the lower aerobic efforts as opposed to the anaerobic efforts there.
Lauren Vallee 1:01:12
Certainly. If you think about an athlete who might be injured, or an athlete coming back from injury or an athlete who has – Rach McBride is a great example, Rach can’t run again, I know this because, again, their coach is my partner, but Rach doesn’t run as frequently as some of their counterparts in triathlon. But one of the things that a coach can do or an individual can do is structure, if they’re coming back from injury, or if they just can’t tolerate a ton of volume running but they are competitive runner – you can actually write a bike run workout where there is high intensity on the bike, and then have the athlete go run for 15 minutes off the bike, 20 minutes off the bike, 30 minutes off the bike at race intensity or have intervals that are race intensity – so two things happen: one, the athlete is getting a cardiovascular boost from the fact that there was good work done on the bike before the run and then, if the athlete really can’t tolerate a ton of volume running, you’re still allowing the athlete to get intensity on the run, the stride length that they’re going to need – they’re going to rehearse the stride length and cadence they’re going to need for race day – but they’re they don’t need to go and run for an hour and 15 minutes. So you’re reducing the damage you’re doing from the running, but you’re not necessarily losing out on all of that cardiovascular adaptation.
Rob Pickels 1:02:35
Yeah, I’m glad that you brought up that Rach episode and something that I wanted to talk about there in talking with Matteo, who is their coach and your partner, Matteo said that when he’s working with Rach, they’re careful with some of the bike stuff that they’re doing because of the risk of injury – and we talked about the risk of injury, the other way that running could lead to maybe some of these overuse injuries – but when riding the bike, there is the potential for some more catastrophic injuries through crashes, and everything else and I do think that people who are coming to cycling, oftentimes what I have seen is the runners have really great aerobic capacity, and they can sometimes ride a bike pretty darn fast – and especially with the rise of gravel and some mountain biking and off road riding, sometimes the skills aren’t up to par with the aerobic engine. And I’ve seen some people get themselves into trouble, so I do want everyone to be aware that there is the risk here for some catastrophic injury and to make sure that you’re dialing it back until you’re really comfortable on the bike, you know, and then you can let it fly.
Lauren Vallee 1:03:42
I’m so glad you said that. I think that safety number one on the bike is so important. And I could spend a whole, probably another podcast episode talking about cycling safety. But you’re right, the skill to ride defensively to understand what to look for in cars, if you’re out on the road, like if a car is signaling they’re going to turn right, you better have your head up and make sure that they’re not going to turn in front of you. Understanding how to corner, descend, climb – all of those things are really important. So if you are a runner who’s going to start cycling on the road, it would behoove you to find a skilled coach, or a very skilled friend who would be willing to teach you how to ride safely. I 100% agree with that. Thanks for bringing that up.
Hip Flexion and Hip Extension
Rob Pickels 1:04:25
Lauren, when we started this conversation, something that you mentioned was the cyclist spends a lot of time in hip flexion and then they switch to running and it’s a hip extension. Are there considerations going the opposite direction for the runner who’s becoming a cyclist?
Lauren Vallee 1:04:39
Yes, there are. And if you look at elite runners, any runner really, one of the things that’s so important to their performance is hip extension and having mobile hips and so one of the things that’s going to happen if you’re starting to cycle is you’re going to be again in hip flexion and It’s really important that after you’re done cycling, as a runner, that you do some stretches to help maintain your hip extension. So the same stretches that I talked about earlier are going to be important for a runner who’s going to start cycling. So don’t just, if you’re a runner, don’t just pop on the bike ride, and then throw the bike in the garage and go have some snacks, take some time to try and really focus on whether it’s dynamic stretching – or even static stretching is fine after activity – but really take the time, even if it’s five minutes, because that will help maintain the extension that you’re going to need as a runner.
Trevor Connor 1:05:37
So as we start to wrap things up here, I just get to hit you with the big general question. Are there any other reasons that somebody would want to consider cycling or running as part of their training?
Other Cross-training Considerations
Lauren Vallee 1:05:48
The answer I’m going to give you is coming from my perspective as a coach, and why I might incorporate running or cycling in an athletes plan – and it’s not going to be super obvious. And it might – this is like me, pulling the curtain back and showing you behind the scenes look at what I’m thinking about as a coach – and if I have an athlete, whether they’re a cyclist or a runner, who is very anxious on race day, or who is very rigid or inflexible, and has trouble when things pop up in a race or in training that they can’t control, one of the things that I might consider is adding a different discipline in the offseason, so that, if that inflexibility, rigid thinking, anxiety comes up in the new sport – so if this is a cyclist who’s starting to run, and I start getting reports of, “oh, this is so hard, I don’t like this, I feel like I’m really fit on the bike, but I’m not fit here”, that’s a really good starting point for a conversation between a coach and an athlete about their psychology, their thought process, their self talk. And what you can do as a coach, and as an individual, is examine what’s happening in the sport that isn’t the focus. So if I’m a cyclist, I’m not talking about the anxiety I have when there’s a breakaway and what do I do? We’re talking about running here, and the anxiety that I’m feeling when, you know, am I doing this, right? I can’t get my cadence to be where it needs to be. I twisted my ankle during this run, and I had to walk home. If we can kind of pull the athletes focus to the other sport, it’s going to be less confronting for the athlete to hear the coaching about like, oh, this is where – let’s think about different self talk, what do you imagine I would coach you to do in that situation – and that will transfer to the primary sport. But it’s a way of kind of working around the direct line to the quote, unquote “problem” or resistance that the athlete is having. So it’s not obvious, but I do think a very reasonable reason to ask somebody to try a new discipline.
Takehomes and Final Remarks
Trevor Connor 1:07:46
Good point. I think that’s a good place to end it. So it is time for how we normally end our episodes, which is our take home. So this is your first time doing it, so to give you the rules, you’ve got one minute to tell us what do you think is the most salient point, or the thing that you really want the listeners to leave this episode with? Lauren, we’ll start with you.
Lauren Vallee 1:08:08
That is a lot of pressure. One minute, okay.
Rob Pickels 1:08:10
Timer is going.
Trevor Connor 1:08:11
55 seconds now.
Lauren Vallee 1:08:13
Oh, god, okay. The thing to take away, cyclists and runners, you guys will have big aerobic engines. When you take on a new discipline, whether that’s cycling or running, be patient, be super disciplined, and do not bite off more than you can chew, get the help you need from professionals, whether that’s bike fitting, getting the correct bike shoes, take the time to do it right, because it would be a travesty to try and cut a corner, go out and run in your Converse and have an injury from day one. So that’s my take away.
Trevor Connor 1:08:45
Great. Rob, you want to go next?
Rob Pickels 1:08:47
Yeah, Trevor I’ll hop in here next. Prior to this episode and researching for it, I never really considered cycling or running to be beneficial to the opposite sport – nd opposite might not be the best word, but you know what I mean – I had always viewed it as just something to do differently or if you’re a runner that was injured, you could ride your bike so that you’re able to do something, if it’s snowing outside, I can go for a run. But I’m beginning to look at it a little bit differently, that you can actually incorporate these different sports to improve your performance. And, you know, it’s something that everyone ought to be considering. I know for me, if anyone wants to check in, I’m actually going to go for a run after this episode. So if anyone wants to check my Strava on Friday, October 21 and hold me to it, as soon as we’re done here. I’m gonna go for a quick run.
Trevor Connor 1:09:37
Can I roll in my office chair alongside you?
Rob Pickels 1:09:40
(laughs) If you want, you know what you could do – we could tie a rope around my waist and I could tow you – it would really, it would double the training effect.
Trevor Connor 1:09:48
I like this.
Rob Pickels 1:09:49
I towed you in the sprint workout video as it was, so now I can tell you in an office chair too.
Trevor Connor 1:09:53
Yeah, Thanks for the reminder.
Lauren Vallee 1:09:55
There is actually a Bobby McGee who’s a famous run coach – there’s a there’s a drill he has for runners where you drag a tire behind you – so this could be great for your form, Rob.
Rob Pickels 1:10:05
Yeah, perfect, love it.
Trevor Connor 1:10:06
Okay, we’re doing it. All right, so before I dive into my one minute, I actually got to preemptively do a quick correction. I kept talking about that study of the the female runners that Rob cited and said they did a 3000 meter run – they didn’t, their test was actually a 10k run. The study that had a 3000 meter run was a 2017 study by Dr. Paquette that looked at high school runners. We never mentioned this one but I think it’s it’s a good one to quickly bring up because they had these high school runners replace two other easy runs with various other types of cross training – so cycling, elliptical running, or just continue to do nothing but running – and the really interesting thing that I got out of this study was those high school runners that replaced their two easy runs with cycling saw greater improvements than the high school runners who just ran. So it goes back to what we were talking about with performance and I think that’s my take home – I have always promoted with my athletes, do some cross training – so you know, I haven’t worked with many runners, but with the cyclists I work with, I’m always telling them, you need to do some running and I’ve always said it’s for health reasons. But what I’ve gotten out of all this is, I think there’s actually performance gains to be gotten as well, from incorporating into your training. So that’s, that’s my one minute.
Rob Pickels 1:11:32
I love it. Well, hey, thanks, everybody, for getting together and talking about this, I think for Trevor and I, it’s one of the more eye-opening episodes that we’ve done, and hopefully it’s the same for all our listeners, too.
Lauren Vallee 1:11:42
Thanks for having me on, guys. I really appreciate it.
Rob Pickels 1:11:45
That was another episode of Fast Talk. Subscribe to Fast Talk wherever you prefer to find your favorite podcast. Be sure to leave us a rating and a review. The thoughts and opinions expressed on Fast Talk are those of the individual. As always, we love your feedback. Join the conversation at forums.fasttalklabs.com to discuss each and every episode. Become a member of Fast Talk Laboratories at fasttalklabs.com/join to become a part of our education and coaching community. For Lauren Vallee, Neal Henderson, Brent Bookwalter, Houshang Amiri, Dr. Bent Ronnestad, and Trevor Connor, I’m Rob Pickels, thanks for listening.
